Instant logout is ruining every part of this game

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Chadwixx wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

How long before they will play the game again and maybe spend some more money? Not until the next expansion, at best. There's a lot of room for improvement there, and to me it seems pretty obvious that it should be GGG's primary focus.

Next league, not expansion. Their retention numbers are much better than in the past and this league isnt one of their best

Define "better".

What I'm seeing is that the new league peaks keep getting dramatically higher, but the stable playerbase barely budges. If we look at the number of players at release and just before the next release:

- Atlas: 33k -> 17k, a 50% dropoff.
- Legacy: 65k -> 17k, a 75% dropoff.
- 3.0: 98k -> 21k to date, a 75% dropoff already, and we're only two months in.

GGG can attract players, but they sure as hell can't keep them around.

And mind you, that 75% dropoff during Legacy? That was one of the most popular league mechanics ever. If we're relying on new leagues to bring players in, that's about as good as it gets.

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Xavathos wrote:

You back your claims with data because it is fact. If you start assuming, you're out of that fact zone again. It's hard to know all data, I get that, but that's why claims like these shouldn't be made. Let GGG worry about it, and I'm sure they do. (See? Another assumption)

Sure, it's an assumption. But as assumptions go, it's a pretty safe one.

Can you think of a single reason why the Steam and non-Steam numbers would be different? I can think of a really good reason why they would be the same: they're the same bloody game.

So excuse me if I'm going to keep using the Steam numbers as a representative sample of the whole, until someone presents me with evidence to the contrary.

Instead of fixing the issues that people use the macro for on their core game, they used the money those people thought was going towards fixing said issues to launch in China and on Xbox....

G E T F U C K E D S U P P O R T E R S.

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DrDraids wrote:

Instead of fixing the issues that people use the macro for on their core game, they used the money those people thought was going towards fixing said issues to launch in China and on Xbox....

G E T F U C K E D S U P P O R T E R S.

Well, as long as it's gentle...

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Xavathos wrote:

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Perq wrote:

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suszterpatt wrote:

Well, call me naive, but I still think we can make GGG see reason. If anything, the fact that we have years of history behind us should give us additional perspective and evidence that some things just aren't working the way they expected.

In fact, wouldn't it be kind of arrogant of anyone to think that every design choice they made years ago will have stood the test of time forever?

They opposed other ideas with same attitude before - lockstep ruining the hardcore mechanics because too laggy, item allocation because hardcore cutthroat (but dare to write their name on forums and you're banned - cutthroat much). And still they have changed that.

/snarky_on
Just give them another few years, I'm sure they will do it just right after the trade improvements. kek'bur
/snarky_off

And yes, this only Steam-charts argument is pretty dumb. :P This is enough to say that trends will be similar. I can't quite imagine a reason they shouldn't be.

It's pretty dumb? You're just taking a part of the total data and saying "yeah, this'll be it." totally ignoring the rest and assuming to know what the rest looks like. And then you say I'm dumb? Okay.

The Steam Data is a large enough sample size to extrapolate trends from. Especially considering only a handful of old fogies would be using the client, meanwhile Steam regularly attracts new users because it plasters PoE all over the front page when you load up.

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allbusiness wrote:

The Steam Data is a large enough sample size to extrapolate trends from. Especially considering only a handful of old fogies would be using the client, meanwhile Steam regularly attracts new users because it plasters PoE all over the front page when you load up.

I'm not arguing that it's a source of data, I'm just saying it's not complete. For all we know, it could be COMPLETELY different than this Steam data suggests. Again, you're assuming it's not, but you don't KNOW. When you're talking about data, that's unacceptable. Fact or fiction. Yes or no. 1 or 0.

Discussions are nice to get attention to a subject and of course it's good to exchange ideas, but don't start taking these for fact.

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Xavathos wrote:

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allbusiness wrote:

The Steam Data is a large enough sample size to extrapolate trends from. Especially considering only a handful of old fogies would be using the client, meanwhile Steam regularly attracts new users because it plasters PoE all over the front page when you load up.

I'm not arguing that it's a source of data, I'm just saying it's not complete. For all we know, it could be COMPLETELY different than this Steam data suggests. Again, you're assuming it's not, but you don't KNOW. When you're talking about data, that's unacceptable. Fact or fiction. Yes or no. 1 or 0.

Discussions are nice to get attention to a subject and of course it's good to exchange ideas, but don't start taking these for fact.

No. This is not how it works. Using your twisted logic you might as well argue that you don't even know if those people are really playing, or they are just afking, or even are quite simply bots. Or maybe some people are playing when their Steam status is offline (not sure if SteamCharts are showing people as online then, probably not).

So now you have a perfect bullet to deny any such discussion, because you don't have the exact perfect data. The point is - you don't need it. Even more - it is impossible to have perfect data. No such thing exists. You always have to make some assumptions, and it is up to person making claims to explain (and prove) whenever those are important.

So unless you have a good enough explanation how non-Steam charts would be different from Steam ones, we're going to use them. Sorry.

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Xavathos wrote:

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allbusiness wrote:

The Steam Data is a large enough sample size to extrapolate trends from. Especially considering only a handful of old fogies would be using the client, meanwhile Steam regularly attracts new users because it plasters PoE all over the front page when you load up.

I'm not arguing that it's a source of data, I'm just saying it's not complete. For all we know, it could be COMPLETELY different than this Steam data suggests. Again, you're assuming it's not, but you don't KNOW. When you're talking about data, that's unacceptable. Fact or fiction. Yes or no. 1 or 0.

Discussions are nice to get attention to a subject and of course it's good to exchange ideas, but don't start taking these for fact.

There's no such thing as a complete data table that is totally 100% comprehensive. As such, the most comprehensive data we have to make the most accurate assessments about the player base is from the Steam data.

This is some really basic statistics 101 shit. The sample size is definitely large enough to draw conclusions about trends. Considering that the Steam numbers are really not too far off from the numbers GGG has posted, it's safe to say it is not inaccurate to say that the population drops off tremendously after the first few weeks of a major patch.

No one is saying it is completely accurate, but I 100% bet my fucking life savings that the Steam charts show similar trends to the overall population.

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allbusiness wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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allbusiness wrote:

The Steam Data is a large enough sample size to extrapolate trends from. Especially considering only a handful of old fogies would be using the client, meanwhile Steam regularly attracts new users because it plasters PoE all over the front page when you load up.

I'm not arguing that it's a source of data, I'm just saying it's not complete. For all we know, it could be COMPLETELY different than this Steam data suggests. Again, you're assuming it's not, but you don't KNOW. When you're talking about data, that's unacceptable. Fact or fiction. Yes or no. 1 or 0.

Discussions are nice to get attention to a subject and of course it's good to exchange ideas, but don't start taking these for fact.

There's no such thing as a complete data table that is totally 100% comprehensive. As such, the most comprehensive data we have to make the most accurate assessments about the player base is from the Steam data.

This is some really basic statistics 101 shit. The sample size is definitely large enough to draw conclusions about trends. Considering that the Steam numbers are really not too far off from the numbers GGG has posted, it's safe to say it is not inaccurate to say that the population drops off tremendously after the first few weeks of a major patch.

No one is saying it is completely accurate, but I 100% bet my fucking life savings that the Steam charts show similar trends to the overall population.

Statistics 101? Oh please. You're just cutting corners. You can easily get exact data if you have access to logs. The problem is we don't, none of us. Simple.

As for your lifesavings or your assumptions, they mean nothing to me. We need to start thinking less and knowing more around here.

Ok, this is going into off topic. You keep on ignoring what we are saying and keep on going into derailing the thread on basis of... I don't really know what.

Returning to original point, the trend is that most players get tired of the league quite quickly, just after the original hype of new stuff dies out. I, personally, grow evermore tired of GGG ignoring core problems of the game (trade, instant log, Vaal Pact, etc.) while flooding it with more systems/content/mechanics that make the situation even worse and harder to fix/balance.

I'm unsure how much longer PoE can be bombarded/exploited with new content that is supposed to hype new players into spending money, but I feel like we're getting closer. And I'm not saying that the game hasn't got better over time. It did. Lots of stuff has been fixed. But at the same time dozen of new problems spawned, while others got far worse.