MoM change : why ?

PvP is outside of the topic, PvP is not relevant and PoE's balance should never ever be considered for it as it has not been designed around PvP at all and many of the keystone are just not compatible with a proper pvp game balance.

5.5k+ life is not a fantasy, in high tier maps you need that on a proper life character.
At the very least 5k.
4k life is way too low.

I think MoM is pretty weak as a defence.

You can invest 2 jewels for changing MoM from pool into 20 or 30% damage redux or you can invest 2 jewels into getting 12% increased life and some damage and use auras for defences.

A lot of defence choices and tools are significantly more powerful than MoM.

Although MoM applies to pretty much everything (including dots after 3.0 apparently), i'd say it is very weak. It is like a slightly more well defined fortify. But the difference is fortify is pretty much free in most cases, and MoM still has very, very clear downsides.

Look at blind: chemist stibnite potion is like 20+ seconds over 4 sips of 50% less damage taken from attacks

invest 10 nodes into block, equip a shield, cast bone offering for 75% less damage taken on average from all hits alternatively drink a unique flask

Alternatively drink any unique flask

Though these are more vulnerable to real one-shots but that's another thing.

stacking armour and endurance charge can completely trivialize 1-2k damage hits to like 100-500 damage hits. or drink a flask or two. Alternatively drink a unique flask

But with MoM it's like a choice where it enables u to... lose more stuff to make use of MoM (mana, prefixes, suffixes) and force to scale two different things to get efficient reduction and pool.

Mana regen is also pretty worthless because you're going to be regenerating life more efficiently than mana. I have had like at most 200 mana/second after spending some investment into mana regen and a leveled clarity, while 200 life/second is like free with 5k life, built into other pathing nodes without you going out of your way for life regen.

Of course mana regen is still important though, but its mostly for (necessary) QoL stuff and just sustaining your skills, and for just having mana to work with after getting slammed to 0 mana from enemies. It's mathematically non-ideal to get mana regen, it is a downside that you need some mana regen. It's like cast speed on righteous fire totems: it's only gonna be cast once, and so it won't scale your dps linearly, but it starts up so damn slow cast that it almost feels like something you want as much of if you can get any for free. Similar things appear with a lot of builds, like ones that focus on slow, heavy attacks to apply to strong dot or something.

A lot of similar stuffs and feels like these small weights draining at your resource allocations are preventing these from effective, efficient builds/tools.

Mana on gear comes mostly from prefixes or uniques, so you are often trading other prefixes (defences, or life, or even energy shield) for enabling MoM effectiveness. Free mana on tree is very little, there is pretty much the witch life cluster and one templar node. Compared to armour, evasion, just starting as duelist, ranger, marauder as life based characters, you will get 100-200% increased evasion/armour/both purely from the life nodes. Though the new nodes behind MoM make it a lot more bearable in terms of required investment :).

The reason why MoM is still good enough despite all this though is because worst case scenario you are just getting more pool anyways, rather than treat MoM as defence, it is pool. Oh and of course because you can use MoM as a defence on top of everything else, and there are not that many spell elemental defence tools.

Pool is king: almost every life based build that made it to 100 had over 9k life in legacy HC, and MoM basically gives you another 500-1500 life at worst. And in that aspect energy shield, whether pure es or hybrid, is stronger.

Even during times that damage was low and killing mob before they kill you wasn't the best, pool > defences!

Anyways I think having even higher MoM values actually defines MoM more somewhat, as your life pool probably actually will be a lower and ailments probably will be more relevant.

5k life is fairly low, even my shitty, only level 82-86 characters sitting in permanent league after league end have 5-6k on average (recently testing 4.9k char lowest, 6.6kish highest)

Anyways one of the big changes overlooked often considering game difficulty is the patch where monsters no longer all instantly slammed you with their skills on sight. Pack size turned turned into more safety as you get more lgoh more flasks charges more souls for vaal skills

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Fruz wrote:

PvP is outside of the topic, PvP is not relevant and PoE's balance should never ever be considered for it as it has not been designed around PvP at all and many of the keystone are just not compatible with a proper pvp game balance.

5.5k+ life is not a fantasy, in high tier maps you need that on a proper life character.
At the very least 5k.
4k life is way too low.

Well i got no problems runing Vaal Temple with 3.8K life and 45% MoM but that is just efective life of a sort but there are other ways to expand on it so its all realy mather of asumtion you know what you doing.
PvP may not be relevant but i just whanted to show how new mechanic dont play nice with old one and how heavy invesment dont mean nothing in face of this new mechanics.
Now when we have more glimps on 3.0 we can see bosses uses SC and loots of DoT related mechanics that also will not play nice.

I think if spell dodge do not worck on spell that scale with spell damage just becouse resons and imunities and MoM dont worck as well. So they now changed scion but lets say they not and we get 50% avoid ignite from path finder ascendancy and 50% from skill tree is that mean you can awoid all or is it imunity what is a SC and all thos DoT damage actualy then? There are many inconsistances specific to new spells or effects, they just brake evrithing.

Even worst is now when we have chaos based skills this realy show how imunity is broken. Having life based build doing chaos attack damage let say viper strike and CI character using Blight you can see how one ignore evrithing and other one is totaly defencles to start with.

This changes to mom may be just start of mach large need to seet thigs so they actualy interact with each other. For example whay should CI grant imunity to chaos when it may as well say 100% of choas damage taken as phusical damage, becouse there is no reson for such power to be granted.

Things worck as they worck becouse they make it so not becouse there is mach sence or balance, its a proces and you cant have things go rampage and doing same thing but got a difrent name tag that ignore its roots.

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nEVER_BoRN wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

PvP is outside of the topic, PvP is not relevant and PoE's balance should never ever be considered for it as it has not been designed around PvP at all and many of the keystone are just not compatible with a proper pvp game balance.

5.5k+ life is not a fantasy, in high tier maps you need that on a proper life character.
At the very least 5k.
4k life is way too low.

Well i got no problems runing Vaal Temple with 3.8K life and 45% MoM but that is just efective life of a sort but there are other ways to expand on it so its all realy mather of asumtion you know what you doing.
PvP may not be relevant but i just whanted to show how new mechanic dont play nice with old one and how heavy invesment dont mean nothing in face of this new mechanics.
Now when we have more glimps on 3.0 we can see bosses uses SC and loots of DoT related mechanics that also will not play nice.

I think if spell dodge do not worck on spell that scale with spell damage just becouse resons and imunities and MoM dont worck as well. So they now changed scion but lets say they not and we get 50% avoid ignite from path finder ascendancy and 50% from skill tree is that mean you can awoid all or is it imunity what is a SC and all thos DoT damage actualy then? There are many inconsistances specific to new spells or effects, they just brake evrithing.

Even worst is now when we have chaos based skills this realy show how imunity is broken. Having life based build doing chaos attack damage let say viper strike and CI character using Blight you can see how one ignore evrithing and other one is totaly defencles to start with.

This changes to mom may be just start of mach large need to seet thigs so they actualy interact with each other. For example whay should CI grant imunity to chaos when it may as well say 100% of choas damage taken as phusical damage, becouse there is no reson for such power to be granted.

Things worck as they worck becouse they make it so not becouse there is mach sence or balance, its a proces and you cant have things go rampage and doing same thing but got a difrent name tag that ignore its roots.

Great idea, let's make CI still leave characters with 1 life, have the Chaos Damage doesn't bypass ES and make 100% Chaos damage converted to Physical.

Presuming the conversion rules do allow that, it would spice things up, and make CI characters focus on the EC and Armour, not to mention a further heavily reliance on Block/Dodge + Spell Block/Dodge...

Chaos immunity should have been instead replaced by a permanently capped Chaos res, it shouldn't have been a thing as long as Chaos damage doesn't bypass ES...

I think you're playing the wrong game. What you need is an aRPG in which player stats remain constant while mob stats ramp up steeply and all weapons and equipment have nothing but increasingly severe drawbacks.

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grepman wrote:

you have contributed nothing to discussion of MoM except call this thread pathetic or whack. this thread unlike many others discusses mechanics and impact.

[blabla..]

2)you dont understand that MoM the keystone wasnt really 'niche use low power level' in 2.6

3)It's a well-designed keystone and Id hate for it to become a no-brained for most builds.

My contribution was to question players and their metrics metrics that wanna tell some extremely WHACK skill get a little boost and suddenly is close to be a no-brainer pick or whatever you like to call it.

IF there wont be more items in 3.0 that provide refill on damage taken it still stays fucken WHACK. Dont try to teach me about power level in 2.6 i know the meta pretty well and MoM is not even close to be in there.

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zzang wrote:

IF there wont be more items in 3.0 that provide refill on damage taken it still stays fucken WHACK. Dont try to teach me about power level in 2.6 i know the meta pretty well and MoM is not even close to be in there.

I think it was in a fairly good place in 2.6, if your build was in a position where it can get a working MoM setup relatively easy it was worth the trouble but it wasn't something any old build will cross the tree for. That's what meta mechanics effectively are, it's something you actively pursue even if it means going far out of your way for it, ES rangers, VP berserkers...

They've certainly improved MoM but I don't think it's quite there yet, the trademark of popular mechanics is they're as failproof as possible which MoM isn't, there's too many factors in play. However, that IF up there is pretty big, as I said in the first post the game needs an obvious pick and they're pushing for it real hard. Only thing we need is a broken flask and BAM - MoM meta.

Anyone here willing to bet some currency we'll get something in 3.0 that will complete the push?

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zzang wrote:

My contribution was to question players and their metrics metrics that wanna tell some extremely WHACK skill get a little boost and suddenly is close to be a no-brainer pick or whatever you like to call it.

IF there wont be more items in 3.0 that provide refill on damage taken it still stays fucken WHACK. Dont try to teach me about power level in 2.6 i know the meta pretty well and MoM is not even close to be in there.

that is not a contribution. you've provided zero arguments to back up your point. tell me WHY MoM isnt a powerful tool and tell me WHY I'm mistaken.

spelling out 'whack' in capitals doesn't count as argument. you dont have an argument besides 'nah uh'. and that is indeed wick wick wack

Just one thought occurred to me, mana gain on damage taken occur before or after MOM damage reduction? Because if it's after the recovery is significatively smaller...

The gain occurs before, which means you end up missing mana after damage. But either way MoM will mitigate damage and protect you so it doesn't matter much, aside from more problem of running out of mana to use skills after getting hit.