The real reason Evasion isn't viable

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BRavich wrote:

Armour is bad. Evasion is just much worse.



Armour and evasion are both just unreliable ways of increasing your effective HP. Increasing your maximum life is a reliable way of increasing your effective HP.

As evasion, armor, and life all come from the exact same places: passives and equipment, it really only makes sense to prioritize life. Armor and evasion equipment that dont have life are utterly worthless. I'm really not sure why +to maximum life is even available as a mod for armor, seeing how all it does is force players to aim to have it on every piece of equipment unless they're speccing CI.




But yes, evasion is problematic for reasons that extend beyond the random crits. It desperately needs to be reworked so that it is more viable than armor for builds with lower life, but without sustained tankiness. Right now evasion is LESS practical for low life builds which is plain dumb.

Basically this

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Zakaluka wrote:

You can't use crits as an example.

well he didn't.

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Zakaluka wrote:

There are specific things that nullify evasion entirely. Yes. Just like any other defensive system (except CI). Maybe there are more such things with evasion, but you learn to cope with it or you switch to a different system. Weakness in those contexts translates directly to overpowering strength in others.

What specific strengths would that be, exactly?

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Zakaluka wrote:

Have you looked carefully at specific examples that absolutely demolish armour users? Being leapt by a full pack of goatmen? Being flickered by a full pack of elites?

These are more dangerous to armour users because? Leap strike specifically bypasses evasion, does it not?

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Zakaluka wrote:

It sounds to me like your defense leans far too heavily on your chosen defensive rating. Do you have a defensive curse on switch? Other damage filters? A control or misdirect? You won't get anywhere with just very high life/very high evasion rating. Or just very high life and regen. Or very high armour and very high life. You need defensive curses, control abilities, stuns, block, dodge - and this is why we'll always see these threads about "why XXX defensive system blows balls". Defense is more than high rating.

While this is very true, it doesn't address the armour/evasion debate. Those additional defense mechanisms are used by all characters regardless of armour, and consequently has no bearing on the compairson.

By the way, I think evasion also lacks damage control. Smaller chunks of damage just synergize better with life leech and regen than infrequent but large hits. While Evasion gives more EHP, Armous allows you to better control damage, which is vital for melee builds.

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Cronos988 wrote:

Leap strike specifically bypasses evasion, does it not?

It does not.

I agree with Zakaluka partially. I think that the game would be richer if the various defensive options were worth more compared to life per-passive-point or per-gear-affix.

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Cronos988 wrote:

These are more dangerous to armour users because? Leap strike specifically bypasses evasion, does it not?

No, it does not bypass evasion. It has a chance to just like Ground Slam or Whirling Blades or any other weapon attack.

And about Evasion getting crit, remember that if you do manage to get hit in the first place and it's a crit, you get to roll Evasion again to try and not make it a crit at all. Though having enough HP to survive a crit just in case is still important.

I feel like Evasion users need to consider the use of Chance to Blind more to radically increase their defensive capability without needing to use up their curse option.

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Cronos988 wrote:

These are more dangerous to armour users because? Leap strike specifically bypasses evasion, does it not?

- Most mobs that come with leap slam by default deal 50% of their damage as lightning (goats). Right now the only exceptions I can think of are Oak and his variant minibosses.
- Leap slam can be evaded like any other attack (other than shield charge specifically).
- Flicker has a ridiculous damage multiplier by default, meaning it penetrates armour very well.
- Most flicker mobs also by default deal 50% of their damage as lightning. That is, pirates. Again, as far as I know the only exception here is Kraityn and his variant minibosses. Maybe the act 3 flickers, I do not recall if they have a lightning damage component.

There's the short list.

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Cronos988 wrote:

What specific strengths would that be, exactly?

Anything involving projectiles.
Any attack that is only partially physical.

These things together are far more frequent than the evasion nullifying mechanics that the OP is complaining about here.

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Zakaluka wrote:

- Most mobs that come with leap slam by default deal 50% of their damage as lightning (goats). Right now the only exceptions I can think of are Oak and his variant minibosses.
- Leap slam can be evaded like any other attack (other than shield charge specifically).
- Flicker has a ridiculous damage multiplier by default, meaning it penetrates armour very well.
- Most flicker mobs also by default deal 50% of their damage as lightning. That is, pirates. Again, as far as I know the only exception here is Kraityn and his variant minibosses. Maybe the act 3 flickers, I do not recall if they have a lightning damage component.

There's the short list.

You're forgetting a few mobs here.
For Leap Slam there's the mutated beasty stuff in the act 3 sewers - they deal pure physical damage, and way more damage than goats, too.
For Flicker Strike, there's the leaping spiders in act 2 (weaver's chamber) and also the untouchable thingy in act 3 sewers - the one you mentionned. These hurt like hell too.

As for dealing lightning damage, here's the problem: Evasion = DEX = very few Resistance nodes. Unless you stack resistance on gear (which is possible but not practical) you take full damage from the physical portion and nearly full damage from the elemental portion as well.

I believe that no attack should be non-evadable, especially not charges and their awesome desyncs. If they make Evasion viable they'll sure have to nerf Arrow Dodging at some point, though.

I'm surprised Evasion is considered to be unviable. I'd think that a character with a shield and good block chance, evasion, acrobatics, blind support gem, and good health would be pretty much unkillable except for Charge groups. Even magic shouldn't be bad with some resists, especially if you have Saffell's Frame on switch.

I was actually thinking of making a melee ranger to be like that. Something like this at 90 points. Fast 1-hander with Frenzy linked with Blind for single enemies. Killing groups might be a problem, because I'm not sure Cleave or Whirling Blades would cut it. Also the almost complete lack of resists in that part of the tree is going to be difficult.

It probably won't work out, just like all the other builds that I've thought looked good.

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0nin wrote:

Vaal Constructs.
Leap Slam.
Projectile Weakness.
More Vaal Constructs.
Ethereal Knives and Bear Trap.
Leap Slam again.
Shield Charge.

Vaal Constructs fire projectiles that can be dodged.
Leap Slam has an accuracy component and can be dodged.
Projectile Weakness is a curse, run it off.
EK is a spell and Bear Trap, you literally walked right into.
Shield Charge can be dodged.

There's more to evasion than "the number in my toon window is really high," FYI.

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casval776 wrote:

Projectile Weakness is a curse, run it off.

And then they curse you as soon as it wears off or as soon as you get within 1.5 screen lengths of them again. Correct answer: Get a "Saturated Potion of Warding". Giant or Hallowed have the longest duration. Saturated to make them take even longer. Long lasting curse protection... unless you let your health/mana top off.

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Bear Trap, you literally walked right into.

You don't have to walk into it to be trapped, he can throw it on top of you. There's a good chance that if you're in the middle of an attack animation and/or are desynced at all you won't be able to avoid it. You can use certain movement skills to get out of it, but that doesn't erase the massive damage it did. Plus, I don't know about the rest of you, but I have a really hard time seeing the traps after they're laid.

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Shield Charge can be dodged.

If you don't get hit regardless.

I think the big difference between Armor and Evasion is the mentality how people view agile characters and strong characters.

Most people in PoE build armor characters designed to be a physical bruiser, lots of life and armor.

When they build their dex characters they tend to build them as though they can get by on cunning alone.

The problem with this train of thought is that both armor and evasion are secondary defenses. Life is the primary defense in PoE. You need enough of it to take a hit from anything and a way to generate it. Flasks, regen, leech, on hit, ect. This is integral for both armor and evasion to survive.

I could list of the pros and cons to armor and evasion but we pretty much all know them. Some situations armor will come out on top, other times evasion will. Both fail all the time without life.

Also Endurance charges are not bound to either evasion or armor, equally benefits both. They are another thing i see people complaining about evasion often not utilizing.