The Son of God:
" Why would a pagan or Jewish Source have recorded Jesus while he was alive? There were many people claiming to be the Messiah and many people being executed while Jesus was alive. From a non-believers perspective there was nothing noteworthy about Jesus until after his death when the early Christians were proclaiming the gospel and Christianity was spreading. Your entire premise does not make any sense. The timeline of when non-believing historians Started writing about Jesus makes perfect sense | |
" True, there was nothing special about claiming to be the MEssiah however: - In the story of the bible Ponce Pilate is personaly involved in Jesus crucifixion. A prefect of Rome supervising the execution of an unknown man and having to deal with all the religious representant of the temple would have been recorded in a codex somewhere. He was not executed like a normal crazy loony. His trial was a massive event, something the whole city/region participated. - Jesus supposedly attracted a lot. Someone dragging around him such amount would have been recorded somewhere. One could argue that the bible greatly enlarge the amount of followers of jesus. Matthew 4:25 Verse Concepts Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan. Mark 3:7-8 Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea, and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him. Such feat would have been noticed for sure by the roman or the scribs from the time. -The new testament in general turn around Jesus and is feats. While miracle workers were numerous at that time what the bible describe is of proportion none would have closed an eye. For exemple the Gospel of Matthew adds an account of earthquakes, splitting rocks, and the opening of the graves of dead saints . It describes how these resurrected people went into the holy city and appeared to many people. 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. There is no record anywere of such thing.... You would imagine an administration/people/tourists would write about something like that right? There is plenty of others things to talk about, plenty of bible stories that if they were true would and should have been recorded somewhere. Yes Jesus could have been an obscure Messiah between many others but if one need to believe Jesus was real then one need to look at how he appear in the world. Jesus and his miracles go hand in hand, without his feat and without the bible account there is no Jesus at all. Calling him the "son of god" and claiming he is the real Messiah then make no sense at all. He could be one of many and in that case what is so special about him? There is nothing in historical context that permit to say Jesus was different than other Charlatans of the time. If the only proof of his existance is the bible and the bible describe extraordinary events linked to him that none recorded then we should consider the possibility that like all those fake stories Jesus is a creation. Poe Pvp experience https://youtu.be/Z6eg3aB_V1g?t=302 Last edited by Head_Less on Nov 1, 2017, 2:54:05 AM
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" There are records of Jesus while he was alive, but since the people who did the recording happen to be believers you choose to discount them. There was nothing noteworthy to be historically recorded about Jesus while he was alive from a non-believer perspective. Just because you declare that it should have been recorded by non-believers does not make it so, it is simply your opinion. There were tons of troublemakers executed by the Romans who were not historically recorded and plenty of people claiming to be the messiah who were not recorded historically. All you have done is add some fluff to that. You are certainly entitled to your opinion though, but that is all it is. And even if someone produced a record from a non-believer during Jesus's life, you would not all of a sudden convert, you would just demand a record from a non-believer of Jesus's resurrection. If you choose not to believe in Jesus that is certainly your choice, but making up talking points and demanding strange "evidence" that has no legitimate reason to exist is just silly on your part. " I am not protestant so i do not view the Bible as the only source of truth about Jesus. Jesus left the world a Church and Sacred Tradition decades before the New Testament was written. There are historical records of early Bishops and Popes and their writings that pre-date the writing of some of the Bible. SO I would agree with you that the Bible alone is not sufficient evidence of Christianity. The 27 books of the New Testament were not even officially put together until the end of the 4th century. The Catholic Church was handing down the Sacred Tradition of Christianity well before any of the New Testament was written. And that, at least, if it helps you as evidence, is historically provable. Last edited by Kamchatka on Nov 1, 2017, 7:48:15 AM
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" Actualy the only records I choose to exclude are new testaments ones and those from people who are born years/centuries after. I would not mind discovering from someone that a believer out of the bible recorded something about jesus but it just don t seem to exist. Note that most scolars agree it is likely the Gospel of Matthew,Mark,Luke and John are not wrote by the original apostoles and the earliest text from the bible (as of now) date from around 51 A.D (Thessalonians). Poe Pvp experience https://youtu.be/Z6eg3aB_V1g?t=302 Last edited by Head_Less on Nov 1, 2017, 8:56:03 AM
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" Well the Catholic Church calls what you are looking for Sacred Tradition, but it will still, ultimately, have a faith requirement. And I agree with you about the later writing of the Gospels for the most part, and so does the Catholic Church. Again, the Cannon of the New Testament was not even established until the end of the 4th century, and it was done so by order of the Pope at the time. The Bible was never intended to be a stand alone Holy Book to just read and figure everything out for yourself. I would also be interested to know why you disregard the testimony of Tacitus? He was a Roman historian who hated Christians and wanted to see them exterminated, and he stated matter-of-factly that Jesus was executed by Pilot. If there was any question of whether or not Jesus actually existed would not someone who wanted to see Christians exterminated avoid doing that? Last edited by Kamchatka on Nov 1, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
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This topic is actually very interesting... at least what it turned into.
I have some questions for Bwam or anyone else that considers themselves Christian and fairly religious. 1) Why is it that Jesus used to perform miracles to help convince potential followers of his blessings from his Father? If it was to lean credence to his claims, then why did the miracles stop? Aren't humans more skeptical now then ever? God even loaned some power to Moses to convince people to follow him, no? Water from a rock and all that? 1a) Along those lines, how do people know that Jesus wasn't some sort of elaborate magician? I mean I've seen Kriss Angel do some CRAZY stuff... and if someone with even 1/10th of the talent came across 1000s of years ago I would probably follow them too! If Jesus is ever reborn, how would we even distinguish Him from the next guy who claims to be the Son of God. 2) I can concede that maybe Jesus or an equivalent messenger of "God" may have walked the Earth... The bible alludes to an "End of all things" where a judgment will occur on whether or not I really believed and I can get into Heaven. I have to accept JC as my lord and savior and I have the Golden ticket. The one thing I can never come to terms with: Why are you so convinced he is coming back? Because some book told you He is? What if that whole "jealous God" stuff came into play and He just left us? Screw you I'm leaving since I messed up my design for Human 1.0! Sorry if this topic came before. I like hearing peoples take on these types of things. | |
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I was told that the reason Jesus is white despite being born in the middle east, was "the miracle of the Bible."
Like wtf...... https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/988f3369-4b68-4eb9-bc0e-edfce4c3c950
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"The modern depictions of Jesus have mostly evolved from the early Renaissance painters of Italy. But there are a few older than that: https://churchpop.com/2015/03/09/6-of-the-oldest-images-of-jesus/ The only contemporary image of Jesus that has any credibility is the Shroud of Turin: https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrT6Vt_MPpZRSwAJLUPxQt.?p=shroud+of+turin&fr=yhs-iry-fullyhosted_009&fr2=piv-web&hspart=iry&hsimp=yhs-fullyhosted_009&type=dpp_vvldnu_00_00#id=1&iurl=http%3A%2F%2Fc8.nrostatic.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fuploaded%2Fpic_related_040415_SM_Shroud-of-Turin.jpg&action=click The authenticity of the Shroud is disputed, but if it is a true relic, then it would be the go to item. "Gratitude is wine for the soul. Go on. Get drunk." Rumi
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" Well from a Catholic perspective: 1) There are still miracles, exorcism's ect happening all the time. 1a) Faith is part of being a Christian, people in the Bible times accused Jesus of not being who he said he was. So skepticism today is not anything new, and expected. 2) The idea of "I have to accept JC as my lord and savior and I have the Golden ticket" is a Protestant invention of sometime in the 19th century. The majority of Christians today (Catholic & Orthodox) and all Christians for the first 1500 years teach that you are Baptized into the Church, and then must live life according to Christian moral principles, and repent when you fail and sin(mortally), to go to heaven. And they also teach that anyone invincibly ignorant of the truth of Jesus will have a possibility of going to heaven as well, in some unknown (to us)way. And we are convinced Jesus will return based on faith. Faith plays a primary role in Christianity, no doubt about that. Last edited by Kamchatka on Nov 1, 2017, 5:41:41 PM
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" Jesus did not perform miracles in order to convince people to follow him; he performed miracles for specific purposes. For example, he turned water into wine at the behest of Mary; and he fed the 5,000 with a diminutive initial number of loaves of bread and whole fish -- not so that they would believe, but so that they would not be weak on their ways home. He walked on water not to impress anyone, but so that he could reach his disciples, whom he loves. Now it is true that, as a result, he expected that the generation which saw would have believed: "Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.'" (Matthew 11:20-24) " Jesus's powerful Word is what drew people to him, not the other miracles he performed. (To be clear, for your benefit: His Word is a miracle. It is written: "Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.") " We believe he will return because he said so. From Matthew 7:1-28: Judging Others “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. 6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. Ask, Seek, Knock 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. The Narrow and Wide Gates 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. True and False Prophets 15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. True and False Disciples 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ The Wise and Foolish Builders 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” 28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. The last verse reinforces my assertion that it was not because of other miracles, but because of his Word, that people believed. *And to be perfectly clear: Not one can perform God the Father's Will without first coming to Jesus Christ in repentance. It is only for us who have received his Grace and his Love that can live in a perfect way, pleasing to our Father. Am I perfect? No. But I am confident in the Grace of Jesus Christ, and in his Promise. - 0 * - < _ > - * 0 -- 0 * - < _ > - * 0 -- 0 * - < _ > - * 0 -- 0 * - < _ > - * 0- 0 * - < <739610877-3104-376.101077-1106.75103739110792103.108-5'92.9410776.> - 0 * - < _ > - * 0 -- 0 * - < _ > - * 0 -- 0 * - < _ > - * 0 -- 0 * - < _ > - * 0- 0 * - < Last edited by bwam on Nov 1, 2017, 10:02:05 PM
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