Why is armor designed this way?

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Fruz wrote:

It's the level then .... look no further.
I'm not completely sure how level interact for damage calculation, but there is definitely something.

There is no such thing. Only one being evasion rating and accuracy of player and monsters. Simply put, monsters will be far more accurate and this may feel like you are getting hit harder, when in reality you are simply hit more frequently. :V

About the hits: yes, you will have to run away from overleveled skeleton who is buffed by physical damage aura. It has damage high enough to hit you hard. With aura not only he will hit you harder, but he will also pierce your armor even more.
This is nothing out of ordinary. :V Just don't expect to be unkillable, and you'll be fine.

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caboom wrote:

as long as armor can be bypassed, stacking ES or life will remain the better choice becouse they work vs everything.

every 10-15k armor: +1 to max ele ress, +10 to chaos ress
every 5k eva: 1% less damage taken.

with the drawback being little to no armor/eva from chest piece.

Chaos damage literally bypasses ES.

100k armor = 85% max res? Add Rise of the Phoenix, Purity and a flask and there you have it - fire damage immunity. RF much? Not to mention 100% chaos res - add 35% from one piece and you're capped. :@

Why are you trying to fix those things and give them drawbacks, when they are working but have their own drawbacks?

double kekd

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Perq wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

It's the level then .... look no further.
I'm not completely sure how level interact for damage calculation, but there is definitely something.

There is no such thing. Only one being evasion rating and accuracy of player and monsters. Simply put, monsters will be far more accurate and this may feel like you are getting hit harder, when in reality you are simply hit more frequently. :V

About the hits: yes, you will have to run away from overleveled skeleton who is buffed by physical damage aura. It has damage high enough to hit you hard. With aura not only he will hit you harder, but he will also pierce your armor even more.
This is nothing out of ordinary. :V Just don't expect to be unkillable, and you'll be fine.

"

caboom wrote:

as long as armor can be bypassed, stacking ES or life will remain the better choice becouse they work vs everything.

every 10-15k armor: +1 to max ele ress, +10 to chaos ress
every 5k eva: 1% less damage taken.

with the drawback being little to no armor/eva from chest piece.

Chaos damage literally bypasses ES.

100k armor = 85% max res? Add Rise of the Phoenix, Purity and a flask and there you have it - fire damage immunity. RF much? Not to mention 100% chaos res - add 35% from one piece and you're capped. :@

Why are you trying to fix those things and give them drawbacks, when they are working but have their own drawbacks?

No, i don t want to be unkillable ^_^ Simply, i have bad reflexes and bad manual "maneuvering", so i wanted a tanky char for playing in a relaxed way :) Thing is: shielding themselves behind skeletons (3 link + 1 point for having two more) and frost wall, killing from afar, is more effective than investing in armor and taking hits :/

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Perq wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

It's the level then .... look no further.
I'm not completely sure how level interact for damage calculation, but there is definitely something.

There is no such thing. Only one being evasion rating and accuracy of player and monsters. Simply put, monsters will be far more accurate and this may feel like you are getting hit harder, when in reality you are simply hit more frequently. :V

This is what I used to think too.
Experience "seems" to indicate otherwise however.
Not that it is very important, since reaching a mapping level isn't that slow anymore.

Armor (and all the secondary/tertiary defenses and resists) may mathematically work just right, as intended.

I think the skilldrasil is designed in a way that is too compartmentalized - almost to the point of being "noob-trapish" all over the place. While thematically, the defenses should be where they are, practically, they make people think they can focus on the ONE that is in their area, and they can be ok.

A marauder sees all this armor and life all over their area and focuses on those nodes (they also get the Endurance charges) so they should be super tanky... except they're not... not without layering other defenses from fairly distant parts of the tree.

A hunter sees all that evasion all over their side of the tree and focuses on evasion nodes. Then they see that Acrobatics keystone... ooh, shiny, except that cuts out so much of their potential energy shield that they have to be smart about layering in stuff that doesn't seem obvious from their side of the tree.

A witch sees all the energy shield all over their side of the tree and focuses on those nodes and... oh wait... yeah... that one works.


If everyone is expected to have impactful armor ratings, why is it only in the Marauder area? If everyone is expected to have some noticable evasion, why is it only over on the hunter side? Again with block, or dodge, or any other defense type. It is totally understandable that some character archetypes will "Focus" on certain defenses... but... If there were some notable armor, evasion, and energy shield nodes sprinkled around the far sides of their respective opposite sides, people may be more inclined to understand how defenses should be built. Right now, it may seem like a foolish waste to stretch your tree out to layer your defenses enough.

I think it would be beneficial design-wise to look at the skilldrasil in class-areas (as some graphical representations of the tree have been made) and see if each class took all 120some nodes in their "class area" and they'd be OK, defensively, and offensively with one chosen damage focus.

If they have to venture outside their class area (totally expected)... how far do they have to stretch their tree to become defensively viable? What sort of skill point investment are we talking? Are they equal? Do we find imbalances that make certain defenses more point-efficient, thus allowing more offensive point spending?

I don't know if GGG have analyzed their skilldrasil in this way. Maybe they did this in regard to offensives, but I highly doubt they did it with a defensive eye.

Just my observation on the situation, something that might contribute to why armor was designed how it was...

Wasn't there something about taking increased damage vs mobs +2 or +3 lvls higher?

I can swear there was such an explanation by developers, in the dawn of this game.
But maybe it is already outdated, or I'm confused.

Personal experience says that mobs a few lvls higher hit much harder than expected, and accuracy can't be all.
Common sense tells me that if there's nothing written about it and it haven't been actively discussed, then it's just my imagination.

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Fruz wrote:

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Perq wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

It's the level then .... look no further.
I'm not completely sure how level interact for damage calculation, but there is definitely something.

There is no such thing. Only one being evasion rating and accuracy of player and monsters. Simply put, monsters will be far more accurate and this may feel like you are getting hit harder, when in reality you are simply hit more frequently. :V

This is what I used to think too.
Experience "seems" to indicate otherwise however.
Not that it is very important, since reaching a mapping level isn't that slow anymore.

You are both right.

Armor and Evasion both technically work level dependend. You are better at mitigating a lvl60 mob than a lvl80 mob with both defenses and the reason isn't that mythical.

For evasion a higher level mob does simply get more accurate, so he hits more often. The fact that he does more damage doesn't change the percentage mitigation offered by evasion. For armor though that is different, a mob dealing more damage due to having a higher level does essentially ignore more of your armor. Thus armor is less effective at higher damage, although similar to evasion the changes are not that intense.

There is a very slight change that could make armor a lot more reliable. Some time ago (very long time) GGG fixed issues with mob HP in groups making some skills a bit too dangerous like detonate dead. It is no basically calculated of the 1 Player HP.

Armor is not only made less effective by mods that do reduce it, it is also less effective against crits, any damage increased or any increases to damage taken. Armor is also less effective against rares and blues because they have a native increased damage mod. The change I would do is to essentially give enemies armor penetration. This would require a lot of work, because every enemy would need a number, but it would be something that would not be further inflated by rolling damage mods on a map. Simply put, an Evangelist of a certain level would always get the same amount of mitigation out of armor, regardless of being a rare, having increased damage, scoring a critical hit or hitting a player with vulnerability.

Because if we think about double dipping it isn't only a thing for poison or ignite, armor basically works like that since forever, because if you are taking increased damage you not only take more damage, but the armor that should protect you is less effective. So if an enemy deals 30% increased damage it usually is more than that.

And while this would make armor even more obscure it would also make it more reliable, and that is something that armor lacks, despite not being random at all.

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Perq wrote:

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caboom wrote:

as long as armor can be bypassed, stacking ES or life will remain the better choice becouse they work vs everything.

every 10-15k armor: +1 to max ele ress, +10 to chaos ress
every 5k eva: 1% less damage taken.

with the drawback being little to no armor/eva from chest piece.

Chaos damage literally bypasses ES.

100k armor = 85% max res? Add Rise of the Phoenix, Purity and a flask and there you have it - fire damage immunity. RF much? Not to mention 100% chaos res - add 35% from one piece and you're capped. :@

Why are you trying to fix those things and give them drawbacks, when they are working but have their own drawbacks?

Chaos damage bypass es but you have things Like ci, shavs, That new shield or lorica to remove That drawback...

Olso how do you get 100k armor without a chestpiece?

Just finished a 0 mods Oasis map (mobs lvl 68) used for pure "experiencing in relax" with my Brass Dome lvl 65 juggernaut

Guess what?

44.7k armor, Arctic armor, 10 EC (added the second Kaom ring at the cost of dropping under 4k life), and laughed at Planus' (Voll) Smash and Charge

And what happens instead if, in the same map, with the same defenses (and fortify added!), i try to facetank siren spawns? That their million little hits hurt

Mega strong hits dangerous... strong hits almost nullified... light hits hurts (like plumed chimerals' barrage i was talking some hours ago).... an armor should not work in this messy way i believe :/ Maybe it would be better an approach like the old arctic armor :/

You still take 8.7% of their physical damage attack so if you take several number of hits at the same time you can still feel it but nothing that can't be ignored by ur regen or leech. That's true that Fortify and current Arctic armor aren't that strong against phys damage for a high armor char though. Now that Immortal Flesh is usable it should have better results against small hits than those two.