Why is armor designed this way?
" Most of this comes down to wording. ES does not offer any mitigation. Flasks are a secondary defense in itself. Primary defenses really only means: Armor, Life, ES and Evasion, everything else and this includes Leech, Regeneration, MoM and Flasks is a secondary defense. Of course the argument that it is easy to supplement ES with those is totally valid, but ES in itself doesn't offer mitigation. But this wording difference does make a huge difference. Because one of the big issues is that it is so easy for ES to fix those holes, while it is incredible hard to do the same with Armor or Evasion, which is also because they natively have to invest not only in armor or evasion, but also in life, which ES can ignore. So the difference isn't so much how they work, but how much you have to invest into them. But yeah getting rid of VP or at least moving it back to the Marauder/Duelist area (maybe even a bit further away from CI than it used to be) and putting a penalty on it that is actually meaningful (like bringing the old Leech Penalty back). This would still allow VP as an option for Berserkers, but due to Savage hits only proccing from Life they can still be oneshot if they are careless, because ES is not any option for them anyway, and if you only leech at 40% efficiency and the keystone is down between duelist and marauder it is tough for CI to use it. But of course getting rid of it is sound as well. It could stay on Bloodseeker, because it is a harsh penalty to use that claw in the first place (and if they actually do local mods correctly, only hits with bloodseeker leech instantly), but Aquity have to go or heavily penalized as well at which point they might as well be completly changed. |
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" you say that as if a life build couldnt do all that and wear a coil at the same time while having 20k passive evasion and capped dodge and spell dodge. they cant have better versions of these defenses than life, they cant even have the same, they can have some of them mostly from temporary flasks that have limited charges. Theres a big difference between having 3 endurance charges and having 8 or 9. They can have defenses on top of es, not the same amount of them by any stretch, lets not get carried away here. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
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" No, what i was saying is that any defense is technically available for ES may not all at once. The key point in the part you didnt quoted simply was that once a certain threshold is reached with defense layers and a high enough ES pool, mechanics like evasion and dodge are redundant or overkill the same is true for bigger amounts of endurance charges. Having 8 or 9 Endurance charges or having a 2k bigger eHP pool is a simple math thing. With a lower eHP pool it might be better to have 1k or 2k additional eHP with 4 endurance charges instead of a physical only mitigation with 8 endurance charges. At some point physical mitigation just matters until you can tank the boss slams or your static defense is high enough to tank volatiles on damage maps. And at this point more defense stacking isnt really neccessary. But this is something i've also mentioned in the unquoted part of my post. I guess you stopped reading at the point you quoted me. Last edited by zzang#1847 on Mar 21, 2017, 1:03:22 PM
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I wouldn't mind seeing life become an implicit option on gear, Or treated as such, and swapping armor / evasion to be a rolled stat like resistance.
A bit part of ES as well is the fact it's an implicit, so it's core value doesn't need to take a mod slot up, which allows for more room to boost it, along with providing better utility for other rolls. Where life ends up being regulated to a flat stat roll. If it was implicit and could have similar implicit rolls like ES gets on mods, then we could make it work i think. Then for those armor / evasion heavy builds they could grab a ton of armor / evasion mod rolls on gear. so armor be like implicit 200 life 400% life 300 armor resist Resist but that would take a ton of rework so won't happen. though we could just make armor be a complete damage block without it's cap limit, adjust some values on the upper end, and make use consume a "stamina" *cough* ES value while using armor longer a fight without a bit of rest the less our armor can absorb, and our str values increase that regen. But then you really just creating two different colored ES with two separate labels. |
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" How is armor working exactly the way it should? You just pointed out that so little is physical damage in the first place, it only effectively works on smaller hits (which NO one cares about anyway) and that energy shield is FAR superior to armor in every way? Armor makes you live through stuff you would have lived through anyway... that is a pretty lame defense mechanic. I guess I will have to buy a one way ticket to hell with your lives
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" This is not true at all, especially in endgame content. 10k armour compared to 0 armour makes a huge difference. The problem is that pure dps ES sponge characters do not realize it because they blow everything up thanks to power creep. Most of those people are following a guide and don't know how the game mechanics actually work anyway imho .... SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
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" Read the post you quoted. I posted about the scaling behavior of armour and specifically said that it's shit because it doesn't protect you from elemental damage. Also a correction for you (again): Armour is not worse against large hits at all. Go plug numbers into that formula if you don't understand. For example if D = 0.5A. R = 0.08A. However, If D = 5A, R = 0.098A. Obviously for a fixed value of A it should be clear that 0.08A is less than 0.098A and is true for all possible (fixed) values of A. |
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Well again there is a definition issue.
The same amount of armor does reduce a big hit by a larger amount of damage than it does for a small hit, however the reduction is smaller. So you could at the same time argue that Armor is better against big hits if you compare it to a flat damage reduction while also being right about saying that it is better against small hits if you compare it to a relative damage reduction. The thing with armor is it is likely the best defense in the game. Because it is neither relative number like Evasion, which would be either meaningless against small hits or massively overpowered against big hits (and honestly, with Charges, Basalt Flasks and so on, we are almost there already). However it is not a flat substractor to damage either which again would be the opposite, because it would either make small hits meaningless or big ones basically ignore it entirely. The current formula is a mixture of a flat and relative approach to how armor protects you from physical damage and it was never meant to work well if you take armor alone. Because for the relative approach you would have to agree to a number how much reduction should be possible, something like 50% would be hillariously OP and essentially remove physical damage as a thread (which is already happening due to the plentyful amounts of flat reduction), while a low number like 20% would mean that melees get smashed from all the small hits they take. This is essentially the best for exspecially melees, because it still allows mostly ignoring all the weak autoattacks you just have to eat as a melee, while not turning all big hits into something you ignore as well. The issue armor has is that you have a hard time supplementing it with something that removes its shortcomings exspecially against elemental damage. |
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