Don't Put New Legacy League Zana Crafts In Permanent Leagues 2.6.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

As it stands, permanent leagues are getting the new Zana mods, which exist because of legacy league.

In the absence of legacy league and leaguestones these new Zana mods make absolutely no sense.

Don't forsake your loyal players so easily, GGG.

They make sense in that she's the map master and her mods now modify maps in a more direct way. They don't make sense only if you operated under the assumption that there should always be access to previous leagues in Perma standard when that's only been a thing since the introduction of masters anyway. Testing the new Zana mods for GGG might mean testing them in both the temporary leagues and in standard to see how they are used with and without access to league stones. I don't think any specific set of master mods is really a "core mechanic" and major changes from time to time doesn't really count as abandoning players.

The mods still make sense as master mods, and while it is unfortunate that players are losing access to something that they had, if the 2.6 zana mods had existed since the introduction of zana, you wouldn't be complaining that it didn't make sense for a legacy league to have access to different things as that's usually the case with challenge leagues. It's likely that having 2 seperate sets of mods for zana depending on the league would be a significant amount of development work as the zana mods are part of the 2.6 patch not the league mechanics and would have to be separated out coding wise. Additionally, if Zana gives you access to most of the leagues, then there'd be less of a reason for players to choose the challenge leagues as most of the mechanics rely on the ability to gain access to content that already exist on standard.



I am not a standard player primarily, but I use standard frequently for testing. Different zana mods would adversely affect my own ability to play my standard character in the way that I have since 1.0, and that is as a testing bed for my builds in the challenge league when exploring expansion content. While I respect the fact that purely standard players exist and are losing access to something that they are accustomed to, I want to point out change comes to standard just like the rest of POE. I don't feel that the change to the core mechanic of a forsaken master, means that GGG has forsaken standard players.

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acillatem wrote:

That is not the same. The equivalent would be to remove CoMK.

Alas, that would probably hurt less, not having it at all would be much preferable to seeing it like this. It's almost more than my heart can handle.

Sad panda.

OK, Rich.

What would your response be if this was flipped?

What if the new 3 month league had no access to old league mods, no access to old league uniques and the content you got was only the new Zana mods. How would you feel about that?

What then, if the reason you could no longer have access to these league mods and uniques was because the permanent leagues were getting access to all of the above?

How would you feel then?

Let's not even go that far, what if this past 3 months in Breach instead of having the Zana mods you did, you had these really bad ones? What if you could no longer beyond your strands in Breach, chance a HH in Breach? What if this change happened half way through Breach, what if you had been farming up Perandus coins and then Perandus suddenly got removed? What if all this happened because permanent leagues suddenly got all mods and your Zana was changed because of this?

I mean, you are doing your bit, testing the new mods in a scenario without league mods.

You'd be OK? Would reddit blow up?

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TheAnuhart wrote:

What would your response be if this was flipped?
...
Would reddit blow up?

Pretty sure the reddit boys would start to collect money to hire a killer. :)

I think this is a really poor move by GGG. The new Zana mods are bad enough but to foist them on the Permanent league player base, where they're unwanted and completely irrelevant, is just a slap in the face. Bravo GGG!

34 hours until GGG verify the big fuck you.

Nothing from GGG so far suggesting that they don't fully intend the fuck you.

Yeah, this is complete bullshit to be honest. Not a happy camper. :/

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TheAnuhart wrote:

OK, Rich.

What would your response be if this was flipped?

What if the new 3 month league had no access to old league mods, no access to old league uniques and the content you got was only the new Zana mods. How would you feel about that?

What then, if the reason you could no longer have access to these league mods and uniques was because the permanent leagues were getting access to all of the above?

How would you feel then?

Let's not even go that far, what if this past 3 months in Breach instead of having the Zana mods you did, you had these really bad ones? What if you could no longer beyond your strands in Breach, chance a HH in Breach? What if this change happened half way through Breach, what if you had been farming up Perandus coins and then Perandus suddenly got removed? What if all this happened because permanent leagues suddenly got all mods and your Zana was changed because of this?

I mean, you are doing your bit, testing the new mods in a scenario without league mods.

You'd be OK? Would reddit blow up?

I think you're misunderstanding my point, or I didn't make it clear. I am not actually trying to evaluate whether or not it's good or bad to have access to these specific mods.
My point is that non-league mechanics should be the same between permanent and challenge leagues because it's the same game. This balance and content patch changes the zana mods, and the zana mods themselves are not a league mechanic. If these zana mods were changed during Breach in standard and in Breach itself, then very likely there would be complaints regarding the removal of access to those mods but that's not my issue with your complaint.

There are obviously some balance differences between permanent and challenge leagues based on the availability of items and prior to the introduction of Zana and Divination cards this difference was more extreme, but any mechanics changes to the game have always been put in place across all leagues simultaneously. Just like masters were introduced to standard and hardcore at the start of Rampage and Beyond, when they are balanced they are balanced at the same time.

Just because the pre-2.6 zana mods are similar to the league stone mechanics, it doesn't make the master mod somehow a league mechanic when it never has been in the past. Neither one of us were able to chance headhunter before forsaken masters (after Nemesis), and in 2.6 neither one of us will be able to use a zana mod to do it. While it's an awkward transition, I don't see this as being much different than my perandus coins being worthless in standard because the league ended and it wasn't immediately available as a zana mod. There's always a clear distinction between Balance and Content changes and leagues content. You're asking for them to change that because from your perspective you're losing a feature and a league still has it.

A similar thing actually already happened and it even fit your theoretical scenario of the league I play primarily (Hardcore challenge) losing something, in march 2014, with patch 1.1 "large chests" were removed from the game outside of vaults of atziri, while at the same time the Ambush league was enabled. Every league lost access to these sources of large amounts of (generally disappointing) loot, but 1 challenge league (Ambush) still gained access to a similar but better mechanic (oh and Hardcore got mobs that one shot you off screen with no warning just to rub it in).

I am not saying that it doesn't suck to be without access to "league zones" but I am saying that the suggestion that Standard and Hardcore should get a different set of non-league content because of something that DOES exist in a league would be a complicated solution to something that's simply always been the case, that challenge leagues always have access to their own league mechanics and the core game may be balanced around their existence across all leagues. The core game mechanics have to interact with the league mechanics, but that doesn't change the fact that there's always a clear line between what is a league mechanic and what has been introduced into the core game. There's nothing to "flip" here, I didn't complain in challenge leagues when I didn't have access to previous league uniques like headhunter before the existence of Zana and Divination cards when I could have bought it in Standard. But I think that your particular situation of being a Standard Solo Self found player (if I remember correctly) makes this change to the core game suck for you, and it does suck. But from a purely game balance and mechanical standpoint, I don't view it as any different than any other change that hurts a build or playstyle.

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RichMoney wrote:

My point is that non-league mechanics should be the same between permanent and challenge leagues because it's the same game. This balance and content patch changes the zana mods, and the zana mods themselves are not a league mechanic.

I agree, the core game should be the same, but there are certain exceptions where temp leagues may have changes independent to permanent leagues. A good example was the very first(?) leagues where some items were not allowed to drop, but continued to drop in permanent leagues, Kaom's Heart, Prismatic rings being unavailable while other new items were exclusively available. After the league ended, global changes were made, core game changes.

The situation we have atm is that the Zana mods are not appropriate for the new temp leagues, the appropriate action is to change the Zana mods for those leagues only.

Let's not forget, the reason the Zana league mods are being removed is because the new leagues have all these league mods as the theme of the leagues. Permanent leagues do NOT have these league mods as a theme, not only is there no clash issue of double league mods, the removal of them from Zana means absolute removal of league mods, totally.

If Zana league mods are being removed from permanent leagues, then leaguestones should drop. If leaguestones are not dropping in permanent leagues, Zana league mods should remain. It's pretty simple.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

OK, Rich.

What would your response be if this was flipped?

What if the new 3 month league had no access to old league mods, no access to old league uniques and the content you got was only the new Zana mods. How would you feel about that?

What then, if the reason you could no longer have access to these league mods and uniques was because the permanent leagues were getting access to all of the above?

How would you feel then?

Let's not even go that far, what if this past 3 months in Breach instead of having the Zana mods you did, you had these really bad ones? What if you could no longer beyond your strands in Breach, chance a HH in Breach? What if this change happened half way through Breach, what if you had been farming up Perandus coins and then Perandus suddenly got removed? What if all this happened because permanent leagues suddenly got all mods and your Zana was changed because of this?

I mean, you are doing your bit, testing the new mods in a scenario without league mods.

You'd be OK? Would reddit blow up?

Thing is this analogy would only make sense if the player numbers would also be switched. Right now they just avoid a major mess up for 3 months, because splitting those mods up and exspecially reserve new database space for another row of entries might look easy, but it could as well be a lot more complicated. Because until now there was no reason to seperate those mods. And I'm not sure if it does for 3 months. Also technically many of the league areas are still avaible by using a darkshrine in the lab.

So that those Zana mods change with every league shouldn't be new, so Perandus being gone is not something people couldn't expect. And technically this mechanic already exists in standard you just have to wish the HC players bad luck so they die a few of the league tokens into standard.

So there are two different options both resulting in a different approach:

a) Those tokens are used in the future in standard as well, which means Zana is essentially replaced by this mechanic in triggering those areas. This means though that redoing their database and seperating the Zana mods for 3 months is not worth it.

b) The tokens are not going to standard, which would mean they have to do something anyway, which could still mean rolling zana back, which would again affect both leagues, so again no need to seperate it.

Overall they made a clear decision to essentially safe work. And people shouldn't forget that there used to be no way to get old league areas back. I'm not sure where this entitlement of getting league exclusive items comes from, it didn't work that way before and now with Divination cards there is a way to get those items anyway.