Buff More Than Nerf

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sidtherat wrote:

MoM is STRONGER than before. currently you CAN turn MoM into 30% damage reduction. flat. it can be done. it wasnt possible before. whats more - you can turn it into ~43% reduced damage (all, except degens but there are not that many degens that matter anyway). it is costly, it is tricky and it requires Hierophant. but it is 43% reduced damage. constant. flat. all the f.. time. add fortify to that and you have a tank worth talking about.

Technically more than 43% is possible vs small hits: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Mind_Over_Matter
Practically your "hp" vs oneshot (volatile bla bla bla) is still limited by life pool + mana pool. So its not as good as "real" reduced damage vs hits - like fortify.

fortify - 20% (basic version) with 4.4k life and 3k ES and enough mana to accept 43% of that life pool

how big that one hit has to be?

Buff > nerf = power creep

Uses fighting game video to explain ARPG points

Quality thread

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sidtherat wrote:

English is my third language so sorry about that

all good mate, I thought that is what u meant just wasnt sure.



a few things of interest

my crit groundslam marauder, 5,388 life naked, 85% crit chance 130k dps glam + 200k dps heavy strike build







6,500 life evasion crit dagger melee ranger, 150k dps wildstrike with a 5 chaos binos, lightning coil, fully functioning powerful build

Deadeye // Stormblades







block build, 7,550 total lifepool, fully invested physical crit melee mob melter


Gladiator // Bladeflurry






I feel like block is probably stronger than its ever been given youve got 100% of block applies to spells without needing to use lazwar, strides etc that have no hp rolls.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Buff > nerf = power creep

Uses fighting game video to explain ARPG points

Quality thread

People use MMOs as an example of why this game should have an AH (read click to by system).

Some people don't understand comparing 2 different genre games never works out.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

English is my third language so sorry about that

all good mate, I thought that is what u meant just wasnt sure.



a few things of interest

my crit groundslam marauder, 5,388 life naked, 85% crit chance 130k dps glam + 200k dps heavy strike build

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/4yinsSK.jpg

6,500 life evasion crit dagger melee ranger, 150k dps wildstrike with a 5 chaos binos, lightning coil, fully functioning powerful build

Deadeye // Stormblades

Spoiler

https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAABAICAABeBS0FtQceCC4NjQ3RDkgRlhPaFUMWvxmOGbQajSPTI_YknST9JpUqCyzhLlMwcTB8MgE31DpCQzFHBkd-SVFKfUt4TP9Nkk4qUUdTu1VLVvVbJluvXfJh4mHrYlpirGNDZU1l02egapNsCGyMbydwUnBWcUN07Xf9elN67311feN_-4TZh3aJ04rwjDaNfY2_joqPYJAblS6X0JoTmmqbJpuNnaqjiqxmsKuxAbIZtMW5Pr02vqe_1cLsxILPXs9602_TftQj2Hbawdtu29Tb592o44Tjn-dU6NbpRum97T_tg-4O73rwu_DV8Yry4fzF_rr_3g==?accountName=Snorkle_uk&characterName=Fat_Dorothy

Life: 6,562
Evasion: 13,260
Dodge: 40%
Spell Dodge: 30%

Frostblades DPS: 214,000
Wildstrike DPS: 247,000

block build, 7,550 total lifepool, fully invested physical crit melee mob melter


Gladiator // Bladeflurry

Spoiler

https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAABAQCAABeAhEDJwSxBS0FtQYgBosGogceCC4KJgz3DkMOSBEvEZYUdRXsFr8X3BjbGY4brSDjIWAj9iSdJP0mlSmlKgsrCi5TL8wwfDGwMgE2PTfUPeJAoETSR35I7klRTZJRR1VLVvpYdV3yX9ph4mHrYlpirGLsZU1sjHBSdKB07XTxd9d4rnpTeu97FH11hNmE74nTivCMNo19jb-S95UumyadqqOKo-eplayvsbOyGbTFtUi2irkdvTa-p8C_wYLC7MSCxLjI3MqQy_XNX89602_TftRS1fjawdy95w_nVOjW6UbrY-0_7YPuDvDV-AL-uv_e?accountName=Snorkle_uk&characterName=Jernau_Gurgeh

Life: 5,700
ES: 1,850
Armour: 14,000
Block: 67%
Spell Block: 67%

Flurry AvDam: ~17,000 (variable on recent block)

I feel like block is probably stronger than its ever been given youve got 100% of block applies to spells without needing to use lazwar, strides etc that have no hp rolls.

i know it can be done once you have a mirrored (or comparable) weapon. this allows you to spec into only some damage nodes and invest the savings into defences. your wildstrike character is a perfect example - you pick two major dagger wheels + crit multi cluster and.. thats it. almost all the other stuff is defensive. you cannot achieve the same thing with normal gear. jewels - the same story - these are pretty damn sick jewels. same as other items.

lets get back to earth and see how far one can get with normal gear and non-crit build.. because it only confirms what has been known for some time: crit or gtfo. if one wants to get a good survivability one has to pick a damage strategy that is cheap on passives (crit) and get a very good weapon so the %damage nodes from the tree are not needed in such quantities

also: Aegis Aurora is one of the most broken items in the game. we will hear about it A LOT if ES+VP combo is fixed.



that 5.5k+ HP naked marauder. it means ~200% life from the tree alone + A LOT of STR. how much damage one can get without going crit? enough to compete with cheap CI builds? because there is a thing called 'insufficient damage' - damage low enough that mobs fail to die and player continues to be at risk of being overwhelmed. with 'normal' gear/weapon it is very difficult to reach this level (im not talking about 'one-click screen clears') AND to have 5k+ life naked.


life scaling is really a lot harsher than ES. sources are limited. there is no multiplier similar to CI's one. there is no %life craft from eleron. most of the good uniques have no life.

characters built like yours could reach 12k+ ES easily + all the other defensive perks you use keeping the same damage output and utility.

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sidtherat wrote:

i know it can be done once you have a mirrored (or comparable) weapon. this allows you to spec into only some damage nodes and invest the savings into defences. your wildstrike character is a perfect example - you pick two major dagger wheels + crit multi cluster and.. thats it. almost all the other stuff is defensive. you cannot achieve the same thing with normal gear.

I have 150k dps with a 5 chaos binos, so....

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sidtherat wrote:

that 5.5k+ HP naked marauder. it means ~200% life from the tree alone + A LOT of STR. how much damage one can get without going crit? enough to compete with cheap CI builds?

enough to compete with ci builds that dont go crit. What you mean is that if I dont use crit can I get the same dps as crit ci builds? No, because thats what crit does, it adds damage.



Nothing you have said has any relevance. Is evasion destroyed? No. Can you make a char with strong dps and block? Yes. Can you get 5k hp without life on gear on a balanced build? Yes. Those were 3 points from the thread and those are the answers to them.

Ok but what's the difference between buffing everything except one thing and nerfing one thing? Nothing? I'm pretty sure it's nothing. On the other hand getting 1 nerf right is much easier than getting a bunch of buffs right.

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sidtherat wrote:

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Ravenstrider wrote:

Imho, one could argue that life is fine.
Evasion and armor are not.

fun stuff, i think you are 50% wrong. life is not fine - it has too low ceiling and the scaling from gear/nodes right now FORCES players to literaly scrap every f.. life node there is

on the other hand armour and evasion are PERFECTLY fine at what they do. what is not all right is the level of understanding of these mechanics among players. some want to stack EV or AR to absurd levels (like 30k+), some think that EV + life ALONE is enough. some other jokers think that 45k AR and 80% phys reduction is enough. it isnt. this stuff should be mixed. it is basic math right there.

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the fact that the other defenses are not worth anything against spike damage, which is the number one killer in PoE.

it isnt

you remember these ONE hit deaths because these are most often spectacular. but what kills players is first and foremost stupidity, then lag/lack of situational awareness and then quick succession of small hits. ofc this assumes that the player has at least 4.5k hp available when the one hit connects


game where one is immortal and immune to any damage (like current ES + VP + damage builds - the sponge) is not a game. life builds, properly built are viable but ofc MUCH weaker than ES/VP. but they expect players know what they are doing. there is a handful of players who can do the math and see what % of AR/EV/block/dodge/flat reductions etc give eHP increases. a hint: 30k Evasion is as good as 10k Evasion (ignoring QotF/Dreamfeather) becase of this thing called diminishing returns

By spike damage I was reffering to small successive hits as well... Damage that you can't react to by running away/popping a flask/whatever.
I just used the wrong example.

I didn't mean that buffing Ar/Eva numbers would help.
I meant reworking the mechanics so that they offer eHP in a wider array of situations could allow us to focus on them (and other layers like block/dodge/damage conversion) instead of life.


But no matter how much you try atm, if you don't have around 5k-ish life, you're going to get in a situation where the incoming damage just won't be mitigated enough and you'll die to something that is not avoidable.

If you just allow players to get more life, they will just ignore other defenses because life is supperior and you will still have people getting all the life possible because that's the best way to go.
At least I see it that way.
Point: you don't see people running CI picking up evasion or armor nodes. Just not worth it, especially with all those cool flasks we can get.

I feel that's because of flawed core design. But, what do I know? I'm not a game designer. :D

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sidtherat wrote:

MoM is STRONGER than before. currently you CAN turn MoM into 30% damage reduction. flat. it can be done. it wasnt possible before. whats more - you can turn it into ~43% reduced damage (all, except degens but there are not that many degens that matter anyway). it is costly, it is tricky and it requires Hierophant. but it is 43% reduced damage. constant. flat. all the f.. time. add fortify to that and you have a tank worth talking about.

What about Volatile monsters?
For those monsters (especially when map has mods that increase their damage, even 10k HP character no problem to one shot)
Hierophant is not the only class in game, what about other classes? They are fucked?
Get 10k HP is tricky and impossible without using Kaom. Should all life based HP chars using Kaoms now? What about other body armors? Should we put them to trash bin?