It's Not Your Money

And a consumer who consider himself screwed, is in some kind of way a cause for action in itself (or it can be).

You think for someone to be responsible you need a crime or a literal violation of the law.

Sometimes a person can be liable or subject to some kind of process even if technically they didn't act in an evil way, but their actions cause some kind of harm and they got to profit of that situation.

The law is funny that way, persons very indirectly connected to crimes where people die can be held responsible for the results of someone else's actions.

The owner of a house or a car, can be the one paying to the victims of an accident just by objective rules the law put in place to try to avoid situations where the damaged individuals would have a hard time looking for the real criminals.

That's why there's insurance and those kind of bullshi3t.

And TBH I would like for GGG to make a gesture to the supporters instead of ignoring them.

That would cost almost nothing if done right, and could be a great PR move.

But it seems in this "new direction" in GGG's agenda, they don't give a fuck about anything, even if that can reduce their profits.

Even the big players in the games industry get the idea of keeping the players happy from time to time when some kind of shitstorms appears and it seems to be related to something they did, even if they are not necessary to blame.

GGG is working more like a cash grabbing machine than a real life company.

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Imaginaerum wrote:

I keep seeing people hilariously say that GGG is spending 'their money' on some form of update they're unhappy with.

Unless you're a communist, in which case this concept is hard to grasp, it shouldn't be difficult to know that once you transfer money to someone else, it is no longer yours. Maaybe if you're Ruler of Wraeclast you get some say somewhere but how many of you are there?

Now of course I would never lessen my experience of this game by playing it on a scrub system like the Xbox one, but there are those types of scrubs out there and I'm sure it'll be pretty successful. So what will probably happen is GGG's funding goes up, even if your list of supporter titles doesn't, and they keep doing what they want. When it comes to GGG, that's all I ask for. Developers that cater get on my nerves

You are aware that people who invest big % of total company's budget get to decide what that company will do, right? Even more - they get part of the money company earn's.

But they transfored munies for company, so munies is company noa, righ?

No. In case of GGG, we were told what GGG is going to spend Supporter's money for. We asked for trade, we asked for many other things. Instead, we get a Xbox port which nobody asked for.

We still have game breaking bugs, like instances of 30c maps being destroyed for no reason (together with Cadiro, who has 4ex map for sale, AH KEK, HOW FUNNY), crashes and all kind other shit. This is why people are concerned.

At moments like this I kind of regret spending a-little-too-much-money. GGG still haven't delivered on so many fronts, yet they go for something that is historically known to fail for aRPGs.

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Perq wrote:

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Imaginaerum wrote:

I keep seeing people hilariously say that GGG is spending 'their money' on some form of update they're unhappy with.

Unless you're a communist, in which case this concept is hard to grasp, it shouldn't be difficult to know that once you transfer money to someone else, it is no longer yours. Maaybe if you're Ruler of Wraeclast you get some say somewhere but how many of you are there?

Now of course I would never lessen my experience of this game by playing it on a scrub system like the Xbox one, but there are those types of scrubs out there and I'm sure it'll be pretty successful. So what will probably happen is GGG's funding goes up, even if your list of supporter titles doesn't, and they keep doing what they want. When it comes to GGG, that's all I ask for. Developers that cater get on my nerves

You are aware that people who invest big % of total company's budget get to decide what that company will do, right? Even more - they get part of the money company earn's.

But they transfored munies for company, so munies is company noa, righ?

No. In case of GGG, we were told what GGG is going to spend Supporter's money for. We asked for trade, we asked for many other things. Instead, we get a Xbox port which nobody asked for.

We still have game breaking bugs, like instances of 30c maps being destroyed for no reason (together with Cadiro, who has 4ex map for sale, AH KEK, HOW FUNNY), crashes and all kind other shit. This is why people are concerned.

At moments like this I kind of regret spending a-little-too-much-money. GGG still haven't delivered on so many fronts, yet they go for something that is historically known to fail for aRPGs.

Wow. You think you are entitled to a cut of GGGs profit because way back when you participated in crowdfunding?

Not only does crowdfunding not work that way, "investing" as you put it does not work like that either.
The only way you'd ever be able to "invest big % of total company's budget" is if said company lets you. In the form of shares and bonds.

Just throwing money at a company, does not entitle you to anything. If you go to say, Burgerking and order a million burgers, then yes, you gave them a big percentage of their annual income. But that doesnt entitle you to anything but a heart attack.

Only if you spend said money on Burgerking bonds, will you get a cut of their income, because a bond practically sells you a part of a company.

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Cataca wrote:

Wow. You think you are entitled to a cut of GGGs profit because way back when you participated in crowdfunding?

Not only does crowdfunding not work that way, "investing" as you put it does not work like that either.
The only way you'd ever be able to "invest big % of total company's budget" is if said company lets you. In the form of shares and bonds.

Just throwing money at a company, does not entitle you to anything. If you go to say, Burgerking and order a million burgers, then yes, you gave them a big percentage of their annual income. But that doesnt entitle you to anything but a heart attack.

Only if you spend said money on Burgerking bonds, will you get a cut of their income, because a bond practically sells you a part of a company.

Thanks for your input unpaid ggg staff member. Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. By not clarifying where our money was going, they forfeit a lot of community goodwill. The proper thing to do is offer a refund to whomever feels wronged by the xbox port decision.

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grepman wrote:

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SilentStorm625 wrote:

but it is my money

it WAS your money

But as i said

The money you donate is always still half your money since you still have 100% of the money you have not given yet

if they use the money you gave as you thought/wished they do, you will spend that money

but if they dont, you are most likely not to donate it

so in the end they are losing potential donation acting like "stfu its not your money anymore"

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Hyskoa wrote:

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Cataca wrote:

Wow. You think you are entitled to a cut of GGGs profit because way back when you participated in crowdfunding?

Not only does crowdfunding not work that way, "investing" as you put it does not work like that either.
The only way you'd ever be able to "invest big % of total company's budget" is if said company lets you. In the form of shares and bonds.

Just throwing money at a company, does not entitle you to anything. If you go to say, Burgerking and order a million burgers, then yes, you gave them a big percentage of their annual income. But that doesnt entitle you to anything but a heart attack.

Only if you spend said money on Burgerking bonds, will you get a cut of their income, because a bond practically sells you a part of a company.

Thanks for your input unpaid ggg staff member. Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. By not clarifying where our money was going, they forfeit a lot of community goodwill. The proper thing to do is offer a refund to whomever feels wronged by the xbox port decision.

Right, because everyone that is not of the same opinion as you folks is automatically a white knight and bears no relevance in a real discussion.

As for your idea of refunds, it should be quite obvious that thats not going to happen. I mean, how could it.

First of all, you did not invest in GGG to shape the game in a way that you want, you bought MTX. But lets put that notion aside for a moment, and lets say that supporter packs really were that. Ie. "you invested in the company, to do something and since they didnt, you want your money back"

First of all, we'd need to figure out whos payment really did go towards the xbox port. Thats not really feasable, so you'd need to figure out how much dev manpower went into it, and refund a % based of how much you pay those devs, compared to the total money devs cost.

I cant quote it, but somewhere in a interview that was quoted in this thread, chris said that there were about 3 constant devs on the xbox port for some years now (i'll assume 4 years).
Thats about 3% of the total manpower GGG has.

So what now? Are you asking for GGG to refund you 3% of the money you "donated" since 4 years? Does that still apply for GGgold you already invested in MTX, or just the loose change? On a per person basis, or everyone?

Fat chance.

If you are not content with what GGG does, all you can do is *drumroll* not buy more MTX from now on, not buy more GGgold, dont purchase supporter packs. That is your right as a consumer, one you should always enforce should you feel the need to make a point. But heaving bought a product from a company, does not in fact make you a stockholder. Which is my entire point.

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Cataca wrote:

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Hyskoa wrote:

Thanks for your input unpaid ggg staff member. Anyway, back to the discussion at hand. By not clarifying where our money was going, they forfeit a lot of community goodwill. The proper thing to do is offer a refund to whomever feels wronged by the xbox port decision.

Right, because everyone that is not of the same opinion as you folks is automatically a white knight and bears no relevance in a real discussion.

In your case, yes.

"

As for your idea of refunds, it should be quite obvious that thats not going to happen. I mean, how could it.

By offering the option and donating back the money they took while taking away the gfx/stash tabs/etc.

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First of all, you did not invest in GGG to shape the game in a way that you want, you bought MTX. But lets put that notion aside for a moment, and lets say that supporter packs really were that. Ie. "you invested in the company, to do something and since they didnt, you want your money back"

First of all, we'd need to figure out whos payment really did go towards the xbox port. Thats not really feasable, so you'd need to figure out how much dev manpower went into it, and refund a % based of how much you pay those devs, compared to the total money devs cost.

It's about proportions, it's about intent when the money was donated. If the company wants to go towards console ports, that's fine but they need to clarify that BEFORE they hire someone to work on that port, not one year after.

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I cant quote it, but somewhere in a interview that was quoted in this thread, chris said that there were about 3 constant devs on the xbox port for some years now (i'll assume 4 years).
Thats about 3% of the total manpower GGG has.

That's 3% which could have been spent somewhere else. It's about the principle of the matter.

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So what now? Are you asking for GGG to refund you 3% of the money you "donated" since 4 years? Does that still apply for GGgold you already invested in MTX, or just the loose change? On a per person basis, or everyone?

the entire sum I donated in the period between them hiring people to work on the port and present day.

"

Fat chance.

Which means a lot of bad publicity and a rightfully angry subset of supporters who will stop supporting.

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If you are not content with what GGG does, all you can do is *drumroll* not buy more MTX from now on, not buy more GGgold, dont purchase supporter packs.

And do a chargeback. Don't forget that option.

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That is your right as a consumer, one you should always enforce should you feel the need to make a point. But heaving bought a product from a company, does not in fact make you a stockholder. Which is my entire point.

Conflating the shareholder and lying through omission about intent of the game company. If they had been upright and said "We are no hiring X amount of people to make a port, so if you make a new donation, keep that in mind." nobody would have been uninformed.
They'd also make a lot less money, which is what they tried to prevent by keeping us in the dark about the shift in focus.

But thanks again for your insights unpaid ggg employee, always a pleasure.

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In your case, yes.

I have a great many issues with the game itself and the balance currently. But at least i am not entitled enough to think i have any right whatsoever to refund my 300 something euros i put into this game thus far. Because first of all, i bought MTX for that. Thats the official thing. My personal intent was to give GGG money after some 2000+ hours of fun i had in the game, not donations under the presumtion that the game will develop in the direction i had in my head.

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By offering the option and donating back the money they took while taking away the gfx/stash tabs/etc.

So... all the loose GGGold in your account? Not spending the currency you bought does not make it a donation. There isnt even an option to "donate" to GGG.

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It's about proportions, it's about intent when the money was donated.

So, aside from GGG not beeing telepaths, how the fuck would they know about the intents of the 300k people that play and "donated". They cant, and they probably dont care. The reasons why you support a company are yours, and yours alone. No company can put the intentions of their customers in consideration, thats a pipe dream.

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If the company wants to go towards console ports, that's fine but they need to clarify that BEFORE they hire someone to work on that port, not one year after.

They dont, and there isnt a single company that does that. Its just that the community here is so entitled that they somehow think they have a say in anything because they spent some money on a free to play game.

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That's 3% which could have been spent somewhere else. It's about the principle of the matter.

Those 3% have the potential to turn into new revenue streams and practically pay for themselves. In the long run, this will benefit GGG, and probably PoE because we have two dev teams working on the same game, where it most likely is very easy to interchange elements of one platform to another.

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the entire sum I donated in the period between them hiring people to work on the port and present day.

Well, its good then that you didnt donate a cent. Because you cant donate anything.

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Which means a lot of bad publicity and a rightfully angry subset of supporters who will stop supporting.

That is within their rights, and they totally should. Everything else is a delusion.

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And do a chargeback. Don't forget that option.

Its not an option.

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Conflating the shareholder and lying through omission about intent of the game company. If they had been upright and said "We are no hiring X amount of people to make a port, so if you make a new donation, keep that in mind." nobody would have been uninformed.
They'd also make a lot less money, which is what they tried to prevent by keeping us in the dark about the shift in focus.

You are not a shareholder. You purchased something from GGG, and thats the end of it. You dont have any say in the company whatsoever, no matter how inflated your ego is.

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But thanks again for your insights unpaid ggg employee, always a pleasure.

No problem, virtual GGG shareholder. I hope that shareholder meeting in your basement works out alright.

I think that people are have the definitions of "donation" and "investment" confused. If I were to donate my money to some cause I am giving that organization money trusting them to spend it how they saw fit to help their organization. However, if I were to invest into their organization I would now have a financial stake and even a say in how they spend their money. People who support PoE donated their money trusting that GGG would spend the money in a way that would benefit the game/company. GGG has done a great job so far keeping the game alive and expanding, so why doubt them now? As far as the original post said that is 100% accurate. Once the money is donated it is now longer "your" money. You donated it trusting GGG. I personally feel that they have been working on this from the start and now that they have planned and calculated all the risks, the xbox one adaption will be a big hit and add more supporters to their pool, which means more means to expand and only get better :)