We are seeing first hand why GGG needs to step in..

"

The_Reporter wrote:

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

You "guys" need to get a room. Bottom line labs sucks ass.

I don't get a room without a LOT of dates first! But I will agree with your bottom line ;)

So, you're homeless? Okay then.

Slayer was here.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

allbusiness wrote:

Point being, what Chris and GGG says, and what they do are two very different things. And I don't fault the GGG team one bit. Someone like Goetz will never be satisfied with the game, ever. He will always ask for more of a challenge, he will ask for more grind, more this and that, and that's simply because he has an unrealistic amount of time available to him. You cannot balance the game solely around someone like him, or Snorkle who plays like 16 hours a day, or I_NO who has unlimited time. Even games like DotA are not balanced solely around competitive play (I know, I'm a legit 6k+ player in that game and I used to work with IceFrog's balancing team back in the 5.xx days of DotA allstars). You have to make your game more accessible, more user friendly, appealing to play. You can't make money otherwise. It's stupid to think you can just cater to literally maybe 1-3% of the gaming population and be successful.


People who have zero experience in actual game development literally will never understand why decisions have to be made. You can't make a game without money. You can't put in all the cool features, put in QoL improvements, etc. without money. People simply demand, and yet they don't understand that you can't have everything the way you particularly want it. It's the same reason why the VR market is currently so niche and crashing. People there think you should have full blown AAA quality games with a huge storyline, skill tree, over arching themes, polished gameplay, etc. on bleeding edge technology.

That is just false, I removed all of my supporter packs from being showcased because I'm not happy with the direction the game has been going for a while and I don't feel like its important to showcase them when discussing issues about the game.

However, when I enjoy the game and play the game for a good amount of time I am willing and able to spend a corresponding amount into the game in terms of support. Will I always want more in terms of general improvements to the game, sure, but to say I wouldn't be satisfied with the content\balance enough to play the game and enjoy it isn't true.

In terms of unrealistic amount of time available, again that isn't true, I work 35-40 hours a week, is the rest of the time available for sleeping, playing, watching tv, eating, ect, sure would I dump a good amount into game\games, sure.

I played a good amount in tempest, a league that contained div cards and ways to acquire gear and power easier, but when you look at everything GGG has done to make power, gear and the game overall easier, it makes a player like me sad, a player that fits into the group that Chris said they care about the most. I can't speak for all players in that group, but as a player in that group, I can say what Chris says is different then their actions they have done.

You can design a game that is fun for casual players, but still contains enough for the hardcore playerbase. Especially in a game like this, which has perm leagues, that literally are the solution to "i dont have time to invest", so the limitation of time is no longer a factor in terms of getting access to power\gear. Furthermore, GGG's structure of getting money further supports less, but more, rather then more sales, but less at a lessor value. Supporter packs, higher cost of mtx, ect all fit the mentality of people that would invest more. Furthermore, its much harder to acquire customers, then it is to keep the customers you have happy.


This game was funded by players like me and was created for players like me, now you are saying its not longer possible for GGG to cater to people like me, which is false.

Even as drastic of a thing like enabling us to create custom leagues where we can change aspects we don't like or grab aspects that we do might be enough to keep our money into the game.

I think what people fail to realize is that players like myself have made concessions after concessions in terms of what we want in order for the game to have a larger appeal and there has been nothing done to increase the enjoyment of players like myself. We even gave up our own separate designed temp league...in order for GGG to follow their vision and goals closer.

A. You play way more then the average player. Period. Don't even try and say you don't. The average person puts in maybe 1-2 hours a day at most into recreational activities. Not many other people do what you do and put in 4+ hours a day easily.

B. If you work in the real world, you know it is business suicide to cater to only 1-3% of the potential customers you have. It is absolute insanity and stupidity to cater to such people.

C. You keep saying this game is too easy and yet you are incapable of completing all the hard tier content in HC as a melee character. And before you say it's impossible, Alkazier was crushing it at #3 until he got lag dc'd which has nothing to do with melee being bad.

D. Making a game both highly challenging to no lifers and accessible to new players is extremely difficult and really near impossible. Despite what people say about League of Legends, the game is incredibly difficult to pick up if you are completely new to the genre. Same with a plethora of other popular PC games. There's some semblance of balance that you can do, but at the end of the day you can't waste too much time on this, because $$$$$$ trumps everything.



The game was not funded by players like you. Stop making sweeping statements like they are fact. The game was funded by generous donations from supporters who like the game such as Charan among a few others.

"

allbusiness wrote:

A. You play way more then the average player. Period. Don't even try and say you don't. The average person puts in maybe 1-2 hours a day at most into recreational activities. Not many other people do what you do and put in 4+ hours a day easily.

B. If you work in the real world, you know it is business suicide to cater to only 1-3% of the potential customers you have. It is absolute insanity and stupidity to cater to such people.

C. You keep saying this game is too easy and yet you are incapable of completing all the hard tier content in HC as a melee character. And before you say it's impossible, Alkazier was crushing it at #3 until he got lag dc'd which has nothing to do with melee being bad.

D. Making a game both highly challenging to no lifers and accessible to new players is extremely difficult and really near impossible. Despite what people say about League of Legends, the game is incredibly difficult to pick up if you are completely new to the genre. Same with a plethora of other popular PC games. There's some semblance of balance that you can do, but at the end of the day you can't waste too much time on this, because $$$$$$ trumps everything.



The game was not funded by players like you. Stop making sweeping statements like they are fact. The game was funded by generous donations from supporters who like the game such as Charan among a few others.

A) This game was not made for "the average player" period nothing else to say about that.

B) You can make the design of the game in such a way that its enjoyable for all want to play it, not just the casual players. Previously the game was successful even balancing around the 1%, so to think the game can't be designed around the 1% is just false.

C) Its too easy to gear and get power, regardless of playing melee or not (that is a different topic). The whole point of playing ARPG games is to progress in gear and levels and both of those are trivial as you do not "need" to do anything challenging, even if you want the rewards that they give (aka disfavor) Its actually better to NOT try and do those challenges because you can get the items from other methods (aka div cards, aka diviners boxes)

D) Accessibility for new players can be from information instead of drops, how about that. Giving people access to the items doesn't help the player understand the game, it just gives them the means to trivialize the game, especially if they just copy a streamer.

League is a shitty game and won't ever appeal to anyone that wants depth, they specifically force the meta and various champs to be better then others, instead of letting people adapt. Its popular because it isn't as complicated as a game like dota 2. If we are comparing games league is like diablo 3 and poe is like dota 2, except poe just keeps moving closer and closer to being league, without considering that dota 2 is a successful game too.

"money trumps everything" Sure if thats the case then 3.0 will so no changes on the issues I have in the game, but its not going to stop me from saying my piece every chance I get until then.

I can make the statement as fact because I have talked to other players, I can't say it was funded by nothing but people like me or that no one disagrees with me.

Every dollar counted back then, regardless they did supporter packs instead of kickstarter campaign, as such got funding for a game that is no longer recognizable.

Honestly the game attracted shitty players it should have never attracted, it changed to give everyone "access thru power" instead of access to information and now we apparently need to design the temp leagues around people that put forth an hour or two a night, instead of people that put forth 4-5 instead. Its almost like people ignore that the game has a literal casual mode (aka standard) where your time you have to play is not limiting factor in being able to progress characters.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

allbusiness wrote:

A. You play way more then the average player. Period. Don't even try and say you don't. The average person puts in maybe 1-2 hours a day at most into recreational activities. Not many other people do what you do and put in 4+ hours a day easily.

B. If you work in the real world, you know it is business suicide to cater to only 1-3% of the potential customers you have. It is absolute insanity and stupidity to cater to such people.

C. You keep saying this game is too easy and yet you are incapable of completing all the hard tier content in HC as a melee character. And before you say it's impossible, Alkazier was crushing it at #3 until he got lag dc'd which has nothing to do with melee being bad.

D. Making a game both highly challenging to no lifers and accessible to new players is extremely difficult and really near impossible. Despite what people say about League of Legends, the game is incredibly difficult to pick up if you are completely new to the genre. Same with a plethora of other popular PC games. There's some semblance of balance that you can do, but at the end of the day you can't waste too much time on this, because $$$$$$ trumps everything.



The game was not funded by players like you. Stop making sweeping statements like they are fact. The game was funded by generous donations from supporters who like the game such as Charan among a few others.

A) This game was not made for "the average player" period nothing else to say about that.

B) You can make the design of the game in such a way that its enjoyable for all want to play it, not just the casual players. Previously the game was successful even balancing around the 1%, so to think the game can't be designed around the 1% is just false.

C) Its too easy to gear and get power, regardless of playing melee or not (that is a different topic). The whole point of playing ARPG games is to progress in gear and levels and both of those are trivial as you do not "need" to do anything challenging, even if you want the rewards that they give (aka disfavor) Its actually better to NOT try and do those challenges because you can get the items from other methods (aka div cards, aka diviners boxes)

D) Accessibility for new players can be from information instead of drops, how about that. Giving people access to the items doesn't help the player understand the game, it just gives them the means to trivialize the game, especially if they just copy a streamer.

League is a shitty game and won't ever appeal to anyone that wants depth, they specifically force the meta and various champs to be better then others, instead of letting people adapt. Its popular because it isn't as complicated as a game like dota 2. If we are comparing games league is like diablo 3 and poe is like dota 2, except poe just keeps moving closer and closer to being league, without considering that dota 2 is a successful game too.

"money trumps everything" Sure if thats the case then 3.0 will so no changes on the issues I have in the game, but its not going to stop me from saying my piece every chance I get until then.

I can make the statement as fact because I have talked to other players, I can't say it was funded by nothing but people like me or that no one disagrees with me.

Every dollar counted back then, regardless they did supporter packs instead of kickstarter campaign, as such got funding for a game that is no longer recognizable.

Honestly the game attracted shitty players it should have never attracted, it changed to give everyone "access thru power" instead of access to information and now we apparently need to design the temp leagues around people that put forth an hour or two a night, instead of people that put forth 4-5 instead. Its almost like people ignore that the game has a literal casual mode (aka standard) where your time you have to play is not limiting factor in being able to progress characters.

League is a shitty game. Right. I'm sure you're a pro-DotA 2 player too. Except I'm like 99.9% sure you're not anywhere close to being good at either game despite the fact you probably live on your computer. And again, if the game is so easy, go hardcore melee all the way and kill Shaper, or at least complete most of the red tier map bosses.


You can't make statements like yours as fact. All sorts of people supported Path of Exile, Charan is not a person that put in hundreds of hours into the endgame, and yet he still dropped ridiculous amounts of money as well as many other people. We all came from different walks of life, so to think this game was exclusively made for 'players like you' is silly and ridiculous.


They used to balance around the 1%. That didn't bring them alot of money. They started balancing around the other 95% of the potential player base. They have had higher retention numbers, higher numbers of players playing, etc. and more people spending money in PoE than ever. I'm sorry, you'd be absolutely stupid to cater to only people like you.

"

allbusiness wrote:

League is a shitty game. Right. I'm sure you're a pro-DotA 2 player too. Except I'm like 99.9% sure you're not anywhere close to being good at either game despite the fact you probably live on your computer. And again, if the game is so easy, go hardcore melee all the way and kill Shaper, or at least complete most of the red tier map bosses.


You can't make statements like yours as fact. All sorts of people supported Path of Exile, Charan is not a person that put in hundreds of hours into the endgame, and yet he still dropped ridiculous amounts of money as well as many other people. We all came from different walks of life, so to think this game was exclusively made for 'players like you' is silly and ridiculous.


They used to balance around the 1%. That didn't bring them alot of money. They started balancing around the other 95% of the potential player base. They have had higher retention numbers, higher numbers of players playing, etc. and more people spending money in PoE than ever. I'm sorry, you'd be absolutely stupid to cater to only people like you.

League is a shitty game, unlike its counter part it has aspects that can easily be considered P2W, it has far less overall mechanics, which means its an easier or more casual game. Ignore the prize pool aspect too if you want. I don't need to be a pro player to see flaws in either game, just like I don't need to be an expert in game design to tell you that my personal enjoyment of this game has decreased because nothing really takes working towards, unless you self handicap yourself.


Charan doesn't even vist the forums really anymore, how about you get him to post here, nothing I've complained about has anything to do with his complaints, I dont think hes even reached a level to equip the items I'm talking about. Go look at the thread I posted, at least 1\2 dozen other people, more then likely more agreed that GGG has given far too much "access thru power" instead of access thru information to players. Nothing, except a handful of boss fights is even worth mentioning, and as I've pointed out already, one of the better rewards for doing one of those boss fights is far easier to obtain via div cards (and cheaper too)

You have no idea about their finances, stop acting like you know. GGG used to sell 1k supporter packs, the last time they did that was 2.0, they stopped so I wouldn't be surprised if people aren't supporting as much. In the end this is a business, but its important as a business to not just sell out to the least common denominator, especially when you've made statements as recent as a month ago saying you wouldn't.

Again, I'm not asking for open beta levels of drops, but the player power, item acquisition is far too high. Start with something as simple as making diviners strong boxes follow the rules previously put in place would be something. People like to bash on the clearspeed meta and the diviners box change just further encourages it. Why would you do a shrine map over and over again for headhunter cards when you have a higher chance of finding valuable div cards from diviners boxes in any zone? Why would you farm the grandmaster map, when you can just make a build that can do regular maps and isn't niche for that challenge? Most importantly, why would you make an uber atziri farmer when the "best" reward can be achieved easier, cheaper and safer with a guaranteed result from div cards.


You are welcome to disagree, but when your point is "ggg has to make this game for casuals now, sorry" that isn't good enough. There are casual modes built into this game, standard, where time limits aren't a pressure is a perfect example of this. Please tell me what is the purpose of doing a new league reset when the economy aspect of the league is no different then standard\hardcore like 1 week into the league?

clown was here...





... still is here, still recognizes the game, still having a blast. never had a "i´m-hardcore-elite"-attitude though (but i played hardcore in the beginning and am definetly not a "casual" :P), and i dont care much what others do/achieve in this game. poe is what YOU make of it. and that can vary A LOT today, and i think thats a good thing. just to pick up one point: why are there still people making uberatzifarmers if its so much easier to get "the reward" through divcards? what is "the reward"?!

so, more power for casuals? thats even MORE POWER for me! (got my disfavour after 2 weeks with currency earned by doing uberlab(carries)/atziriruns - i hope thats considered challenging enough? i deliberately made my first build as uberlab/atzirifarmer to generate currency. stupid, when "trading" (flipping...) is sooo much more efficient, isnt it?!)

my 2nd "business" was/is rushing people arround, so welcome to all "casuals" that have no time/hate questing/lab/lack "skill"... (even rushed lots of hc-dudes that came to bsc for the challenges). i was able to invest arround 120 ex in my lowlife golemmancer till now, and i really suck at the tradinggame (thats why i dont play it... very much). go figure :)

oh, on topic: even flippers/pricefixers cant take away the fun im having. seems like lots of people play another GAME than i do ("do they even play a game?" is what i ask myself often...). after all, its just PIXELS, and at least i am here to have some FUN...

im really thankful for the game GGG made, is making, and am happy i can still participate and enjoy it, literally _together_ with many, many people from all arround the world.


sry to derail your... discussion, but had to say that.


and now im gone again.


clown :)

"

adghar wrote:

How would you all feel if xyz put a disclaimer at the top saying something like:

"Please be aware that poe.trade only indexes offers, not completed trades. Thus, some offers may not reflect actual demand or supply. When trading, take care to avoid false market signals where possible."

?

If a person really needs someone to tell them that then getting manipulated in a online game trade is the least of their worries...

It's like these people who see a 200 es vaal regalia listed for 15ex and get outraged in chat about it... no ones buying the thing at that price, and only idiots are setting their own price based off of a wildly wishful overpricing... 99% of us know the cheapest price listed is sometimes NOT actually for sale.

the 1% have bigger problems... like putting their underwear on the right end of their body every morning.

That said I do not expect this has much to do with price fixing just because there are some people doing that does not imply causation.

The CHAOS IS GETTING STRONGER, exalts are not worth less... they still buy 180 fuses, many of the same items can still be bought for the same exalt price. What's happening is that chaos are more valuable and it takes fewer of them to buy an exalt. This directly contradicts the theory that people are manipulating the exalt price by fixing.

The MOST you can do price fixing is getting some impatient people to list their stuff for a bargain so you can snap it up and flip for a profit... you can not make the entire market for exalts crash, and you can not make chaos increase dramatically in value (which is what has actually happened) short of these fixers controlling 30 or 40% of the entire chaos orb supply and then colluding with each other to manipulate prices only actual supply and demand can do what we've seen.