Veteran Casual Player Path of Exile Rating

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johnKeys wrote:

I don't have to compete with Korean champions to enjoy Starcraft.
I shouldn't compete or be influenced by GGG tuning their game towards the no-life dinosaur

i_no getting her 40 challenges 3 weeks into the 3 month league is the best indicator that the game isn't tuned to her nolive gamestyle at the slightest.

that doesn't prevent her complaining about challenges that take longer than 3 weeks to complete though. funny that she uses the same argument as you: "rng is shit"

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Shiadrone wrote:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Not every aRPG has to be MMO to be great, and even PoE limits the party to 6 persons - having a MMO market without a proper trade system while relying on bartering is not a smart choice as even PoE illustrates...

Both Torchlight and Grim Dawn feel like a finished product, while PoE, though more complex, feels like a work in progress that still has a long way ahead...

I think I wouldn't play PoE without any trading. Why the fuck should I play a game where the drop is RNG and not adjusted to the played class/build. Trading is essentially for PoE - Why do they not already have a good trading system..

GGG doesnt want an auction house.. this is all I know

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I dont hate the fact that PoE feels like being in progress, i like it. I like it to see they actively are developing this game.. not like other games <.<

You can have either RNG drops centered on a no trading enviroment - like D3 now, when you drop the stuff that you "need" - or on a trading enviroment, like PoE, where everyone drops something that would benefit others more.

The bartering system is great for the trade mechanic of PoE until you are faced with the MMO global mechanic and with players not being online in the same time... You are having an economy that relies on players being online to actively do "click, click + THX", but when the other party isn't available, you're left with waiting sometimes forever (let's not even talk about no reliable way of seeing DND/AFK/Online available for trade status or the amount of flippers/scammers etc)...

GGG has to implement a better system if they want to still mention trading as a core feature of the game, as right now trade is lackluster to say the least.

Well PoE being a work in progress is not that bad, the worse aspect is that they lack direction and focus in a more efficient way at times - you want to make a game for hardcore fans, ok, but even they might want to see finality and a severe prolonging of issues makes them just refocus their effort elsewhere - a large part of the supporters that invested huge amounts of time and money moved on, because you can only tolerate progress at a snails pace for so long during your lifetime...

I am a supporter too, and I have invested huge amounts of time (only Dota 2 equals the playtime of PoE from my comprising >600 games library) and money (I heavily supported PoE as more than Dota 2 + Star Citizen combined, >500$ till now, and will probably still do as long as they keep the game fun enough), but even I know that sometime I will probably move on...

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vio wrote:

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johnKeys wrote:

I don't have to compete with Korean champions to enjoy Starcraft.
I shouldn't compete or be influenced by GGG tuning their game towards the no-life dinosaur

i_no getting her 40 challenges 3 weeks into the 3 month league is the best indicator that the game isn't tuned to her nolive gamestyle at the slightest.

that doesn't prevent her complaining about challenges that take longer than 3 weeks to complete though. funny that she uses the same argument as you: "rng is shit"

yep. so let's fucking nerf everything and boost RNG 100x layers more, so next league takes her 1.5 months to 40/40, and everyone else is being fucked over even worse...
sounds reasonable? no.
but that is exactly what GGG are doing, and why I'm so pissed off about it.
and they were always doing that. heck you are here since Alpha/CB, and they probably were doing it back then. just replace "I_NO" with "Kripp".

the sole reason why they took a necessary building block like RNG to the utter fucking extreme no-game-has-ever-gone-before, build-every-fucking-thing-around-it levels, is because there are no-lifers, "competing" with people who are not. in the Ladder and in the "economy".

so why not let the no-lifers compete and trade among themselves, and stop balancing the game around it?
let me play "my Starcraft" in peace, without knowing ByuN exists.

that's where Scrotie would come in and say "you can't separate it. economy needs the bottom of the pyramid so the top of the pyramid can exist" - so the 2nd best option is a Self Found League.
with drops that are actually influenced by the kind of content you are doing, which in turn is locked by how good you are to access said content rather than how well your dice roll or what your Global820/3rd-party-trading-site "skills" are.

PoE is an amazing game, with the most fucking ridiculous loot/crafting/content system I had ever seen in over 30 years, which just keeps getting worse over time.
such great strategy this "balancing for the 0.000000000001%" is.
I bet the next league will be even more "clear-speed-and-DPS-meta" than this one.
if that's even humanly possible.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Well PoE being a work in progress is not that bad, the worse aspect is that they lack direction and focus in a more efficient way at times - you want to make a game for hardcore fans, ok, but even they might want to see finality and a severe prolonging of issues makes them just refocus their effort elsewhere - a large part of the supporters that invested huge amounts of time and money moved on, because you can only tolerate progress at a snails pace for so long during your lifetime...

players stated all sort of reasons for leaving but trading being inefficient wasn't on the list yet.

online games usually have the problem of new casual players having unwarranted expectations after seeing the lolifers facerolling the endgame after 3 days into a league.

do you think effective trading would widen the gap between nolifers and casuals or bring them closer together?

and why is the effect you estimated good for the game?

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johnKeys wrote:

yep. so let's fucking nerf everything and boost RNG 100x layers more, so next league takes her 1.5 months to 40/40, and everyone else is being fucked over even worse...
sounds reasonable? no.

i always had the opinion that rng crafting/looting/challenges closes the gap between the nolifers and players with less time.

and still think that way, if there were no rng and i mandatorily had to dump 3000 fusings to 6-link an item you wouldn't see me here.

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johnKeys wrote:

that's where Scrotie would come in and say "you can't separate it. economy needs the bottom of the pyramid so the top of the pyramid can exist" - so the 2nd best option is a Self Found League.
with drops that are actually influenced by the kind of content you are doing, which in turn is locked by how good you are to access said content rather than how well your dice roll or what your Global820/3rd-party-trading-site "skills" are.

i'm with you and as a player with less time available i feel powerless to compete against players who are able to dump their real life into the game.

haven't found a way though to change that while at the same time keeping the game challenging for those nolifers.

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separating? not a good solution. but what do you think about the tech implemented in the chinese beta which makes items and currency until maps account bound? meant as bot protection it would surely kill the peasant/king relation you described.

although, i'm torn on this one, i've always argumented that it's a good thing for players to grind items higher level players maybe need so they have something to sell. while that's ok for, say, atziri shards i don't want this to happen with currency.

what if the game had exalted, divine orbs and the mirror account bound?

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vio wrote:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Well PoE being a work in progress is not that bad, the worse aspect is that they lack direction and focus in a more efficient way at times - you want to make a game for hardcore fans, ok, but even they might want to see finality and a severe prolonging of issues makes them just refocus their effort elsewhere - a large part of the supporters that invested huge amounts of time and money moved on, because you can only tolerate progress at a snails pace for so long during your lifetime...

players stated all sort of reasons for leaving but trading being inefficient wasn't on the list yet.

online games usually have the problem of new casual players having unwarranted expectations after seeing the lolifers facerolling the endgame after 3 days into a league.

do you think effective trading would widen the gap between nolifers and casuals or bring them closer together?

and why is the effect you estimated good for the game?

What unwarranted expectation? To be able to trade with every player in this game no matter the timezone/online status or to actually feel the same amount of progress at a normal pace of 2 hours daily playtime from 1-100?

Effective trading would at least give the casuals a possibility to work hard for an overpriced flipped item and actually buy it, disregarding the online status of the seller. That's it, no more, no less.

Players that change prices as you try to buy an item should not even have that option, without a relist of the item on the trade interface - I'm not opposed for them to alter the price up or down, just that they shouldn't be able to do it when you are actively trying to buy it. If you listed it at a set price and someone paid your price, you have to fork the item, and yes it will make you more careful when setting a price.

The gap between no lifers and casuals should never become a problem. as they are focused on different goals, and you will always have a pyramid of prices and items, but making the items available for all would be a priority for a game that refers to trading as a core element.

I'm all for fun and progressiveness from level 1-100, and if trade facilitates it for no lifers and casuals alike it will be perfect - mind you, I'm OK with having rarity based prices, but the access to items should be facilitated by trading for all players as we are equals in this aspect, my EX is same as your EX you know...

PS: A long time ago I proposed another set of challenges as those would be a bit more fair from my point of view:

1. Make and refine the mechanics of new UBER MEGA BOSSES, keep them in an arena and go up 1 tier if succeeded in defeating a wave... That would be the ultimate combat challenge.

2. Go for mega grind challenge 100 x 1200 (or even 1000 x 1200 for the elite) Voll's so you will know that the grinders can grind. The ultimate grinding challenge in 2 stages, for casuals and for elites.

3. Go for mega trading challenge where YOU HAVE TO BUY ALL THE UNIQUES (no Cadiro, and finding them doesn't count) during a few months/a league. Also it would be nice to have a nice 100/200/MAX NUMBER stages. And then you have your ultimate trading challenge.

4. Go for a nice explorers challenge, which would take the playing of each map and each rarity and each previous league mod at least once (add all the previous leagues availability at Zana map device), count the Vaaled ones separately and allow corruption of the Labyrinth Offerings for a new custom layout with a corrupted Izaro as ultimate encounter. That way you reach the ultimate explorer challenge.

Implement those as true challenges with at least 3 tiers for each achievement, and keep these challenges for at least 4 months.

Profit.

nice post which describes the ideal game, let's say i wish it would be true for a majority of players. also nice suggestions for challenges

some points:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Effective trading would at least give the casuals a possibility to work hard for an overpriced flipped item and actually buy it

true, but they would have to pay more for good items while they will be unable to sell their stuff for a good profit as professional traders will undercut them.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Players that change prices as you try to buy an item should not even have that option,

automatisation?

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sofocle10000 wrote:

The gap between no lifers and casuals should never become a problem.
as they are focused on different goals

the problem is to make players with less playtime realise that they will never see the endgame. for example see the massive complaints of players with even moderate time investment about not sustaining red maps. you think you can convince them to lower their goals? i tried ;-)

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the current trade system is what ggg always wanted, during act 3b (dominus) release they admired the cleverness of some players who profited from the fact that americans are usually willing to pay alot more for the same items as europeans.

ggg never wanted buyout prices and the current system should honestly remove the buyout descriptions because in reality there is no reason to sell for the advertised price. it should just state checkout price, nothing else.

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vio wrote:

nice post which describes the ideal game, let's say i wish it would be true for a majority of players. also nice suggestions for challenges

some points:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Effective trading would at least give the casuals a possibility to work hard for an overpriced flipped item and actually buy it

true, but they would have to pay more for good items while they will be unable to sell their stuff for a good profit as professional traders will undercut them.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Players that change prices as you try to buy an item should not even have that option,

automatisation?

Spoiler

you probably exchange that for bots auto flipping underpriced stuff.
results?
you will never make a "good deal" anymore. trading would lose it's flair as well as the gambling/achievement aspect. you will have uniform individual prices for all items.

instead of individual players modifying their item prices you will have groups of players manipulating the prices of whole item groups in joint efforts.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

The gap between no lifers and casuals should never become a problem.
as they are focused on different goals

the problem is to make players with less playtime realise that they will never see the endgame. for example see the massive complaints of players with even moderate time investment about not sustaining red maps. you think you can convince them to lower their goals? i tried ;-)

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the current trade system is what ggg always wanted, during act 3b (dominus) release they admired the cleverness of some players who profited from the fact that americans are usually willing to pay alot more for the same items as europeans.

ggg never wanted buyout prices and the current system should honestly remove the buyout descriptions because in reality there is no reason to sell for the advertised price. it should just state checkout price, nothing else.

Heh, I actually thought about another example that I faced recently:

I wanted to buy a Dory Catalyst with high phys rolls and new implicit. One was available to buy for 50 Chaos. I ask the trader if he wants to sell it. He answers: "W8 pls in Uber Lab." I say "No prob. just say when available for trade". I recheck in 10 minutes and surprise, surprise, the trader added me to ignore list and doubled the price. As I wanted a new Dory, I had to annoy people in Sarn trying to explain my situation, and managed to actually buy the item at the new price via a guild mate that came online. I lost time and was getting angry and since then, I'm all in for people that want to trade to act with responsibility and trade the item for the stated price.

If you never set a hard price it's a bit difficult to exercise a more quality controlled system.

Of course you can't expect to reach the same level of endgame content as a true dedicated player as casual, but don't tell me you can't reach easily red tier maps - not sustaining tier 14-16 is not a problem, because you're not rewarded to play harder content from a casual point of view perspective, as high end uniques are RNG gated still (watch I_NO thread for >300 runs for an Atziri's Acuity drop in Breach and you'll get the point easily), and the possibility of death rises exponential without a same rise in EXP gain or item/currency gain...

Also, if the always available items for trade space is limited, you'll force players to make active decisions, and you can also let that function as a currency sink (to keep an item available, you should pay)...

I don't have problems with prices, as I always tend to overpay stuff - I find it nice to help fellow players - and I hate to take advantage of others, especially if I see them as new players that don't know how to price correctly an item, especially since they made the drops more accesible for us casual hoarders...

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vio wrote:

how about being famous in the community by finding out about one recipe no one discovered yet? poe is a online game after all.

Personally I could care less about who discovers what or fame for that matter.

POE was built originally for racing so all the core issues of the game stem from this one single fact. They spend so much time building things that 95% of people hate or will never be able to get to like shaper/guardians/etc. The lab traps are ridiculous and IMHO the worst idea they've ever had.

RMT is extremely rampant in this game and people who think otherwise are delusional. Same goes for botting, overlays, macros, autopot/logout scripts based on health/es thresholds, etc. GGG is doing such a terrible job at detecting/stopping this - we see the ad spam for it in numerous chat channels every day.

If I had my way I'd have mirrors drop like candy to crash the RMT market. PoE has no proper counters to it.

Diablo 2 had open battlenet where people could dupe/hack gg items, which put a massive downward pressure on real life prices/RMT. Yes there was still RMT in that game but not even close to what we see in PoE because players had an easy alternative to gratify themselves.

This is one of the reasons why I keep pushing for a moddable offline mode (separate saves of course). There is no stronger counter to RMT, aside from going all out D3 style and binding everything to account.