I'm...slightly baffled here.

"

_Tiem wrote:

People still use LC? And think it's good? Even the legacy LC is trash compared to a larger life pool in this meta (cough Kaom's Heart cough). Even Belly is pretty much on par with LC these days.

Face it folks, LC is dead.

The way armor works since 2.0 and how it deals with large hits negates LC completely. Run the numbers and see how many titanic hits you can sustain vs other armors. Even funneling 100% of physical damage into elemental won't perform nearly as well as you guys want to believe.

But you know, you can always line my coffers with chaos if you want to keep using archaic gear that is basically trash these days. I will give you a "I don't really understand this game" deals :p

Convincing troll.









Wait.
Dear god, might you actually be serious? Belly is almost as much of a noobtrap as kintsugi.

"

_Tiem wrote:

People still use LC? And think it's good? Even the legacy LC is trash compared to a larger life pool in this meta (cough Kaom's Heart cough). Even Belly is pretty much on par with LC these days.

Whoa, that's quite a dramatic difference from other posters who swear that legacy LC is the best defense in the game. Seems to me a sign of good balance that opinions can disagree wildly like this.

"

The way armor works since 2.0 and how it deals with large hits negates LC completely. Run the numbers and see how many titanic hits you can sustain vs other armors.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here. Ever since Open Beta, Armour mechanics have only been buffed (Hit coefficient lowered from 12 to 10). When my phone was running out of battery I thought perhaps you were talking about the huge buffs to base Life per level, but that's not technically a change to "the way armor works."

It's interesting that you compared BotB to LC because I had a subjective experience that suggested just the opposite. Obviously, biases factor into my perception, but Legacy LC felt like it transformed one of my squished characters to one of my tankiest characters (at the time - this was before ascendancies). Meanwhile I put BotB on another one of my characters and I barely noticed a difference - the small increase in buffer didn't really let me hit any breakpoints, I suppose.

Keep in mind that a 22.5% reduction in damage is equal to 29% more eHP because of the way rates work (i.e. 90% reduction would be 1/10 of the damage, so it takes 10× as many hits to kill you, so 90% reduction = 900% more eHP). And 30% reduction = 42.8% more eHP. But for LC that is only eHP vs Physical Hits, not pure degens and not Elemental or Chaos.

BotB, on the other hand, will grant 13 to 20% more Life with a perfect roll, unless you are running some kind of crazy glass cannon build in which case 21 to 40% more is possible (but moot, because you'll get one shot no matter what chest you wear). But this is a buffer boost, which will apply to all damage, and consistently helps any % based recovery you have, like Leech or Regeneration.

IMO the single biggest defense boost from 1 chest swap in the game you can get right now is going from no Enfeeble to using Cospri's Will with Blasphemy + Enfeeble. Obviously this can complicate things for some builds, such as those that really need the reservation for other things, builds strapped for gem sockets, CI builds, builds that sorely need 4+ non green sockets, etc. But that would be the biggest boost, especially with Curse effectiveness bonuses. Even with no curse effectiveness, 12% less damage of bosses, or 13.6% more eHP, is in the realm of a BotB but scales up your flat recovery as well. And of course against ordinary enemies, 30% less or 42.8% more eHP is godlike.

In general I really like mitigation because of the relative boost to flat recovery (relying on mitigation means each point of flat healing is a greater percentage of your eHP than if you had sprung for more Life instead). So that would be Rejuvenation Totem, Stone Golem, and all Life Gain on Hit effects.

To me it all seems like a dance of strengths and weaknesses though. Are there any defensive chests I forgot to compare? LC, BotB, and Cospri's (when Enfeeble wasn't already in use) are the main ones that come to my mind.

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adghar wrote:

IMO the single biggest defense boost from 1 chest swap in the game you can get right now is going from no Enfeeble to using Cospri's Will with Blasphemy + Enfeeble.

I for one think Cospri isn't in the same league as others because it's more situational. If poison does something for you, it's amazing, if not and your build isn't hanging on ring slots - you're better off with a doedre ring and a rare chest, not to mention you can get an absolutely kickass rare chest for the price, any type of chest you want.

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raics wrote:

I for one think Cospri isn't in the same league as others because it's more situational. If poison does something for you, it's amazing, if not and your build isn't hanging on ring slots - you're better off with a doedre ring and a rare chest, not to mention you can get an absolutely kickass rare chest for the price, any type of chest you want.

But what about Hexproof penetration? Maybe it's just a personal pet peeve about inconsistency, but I don't like the idea of randomly being instagibbed just because a Hexproof monster shows up, or a Hexproof map suddenly being about 42.8% more dangerous than before. Enabling Enfeeble to work on nearly everything just makes Cospri's super drool worthy to me.

Maybe it's because I've only tried it on one character so far, and not for long either. It's already proving a little disappointing as I'm hybrid Life/ES on that character so the loss of 1500 buffer is quite disheartening. But I've only tried Blasphemy Temp Chains on that character so far for the moar deeps (that char does use Poison, admittedly), might be worth actually trying the combo I've been praising so much to see if it is defensively up to snuff.

"

adghar wrote:

"

_Tiem wrote:

People still use LC? And think it's good? Even the legacy LC is trash compared to a larger life pool in this meta (cough Kaom's Heart cough). Even Belly is pretty much on par with LC these days.

Whoa, that's quite a dramatic difference from other posters who swear that legacy LC is the best defense in the game. Seems to me a sign of good balance that opinions can disagree wildly like this.

Lightning coil is roughly equal to having 20k armour when hit by a 5500 phys dmg hit. Hits of that caliber are not as rare as one would think in higher-tier maps. It's hands down the best single item for physical mitigation you can get, and it's reliable. Running around with 20k armour might instill a false sense of confidence because you won't even feel smaller hits, so you might get cocky and receive an unpleasant surprise. Of course, there are builds which get more than 20k armour without counting flasks and other mitigation - but this comes with a much more significant investment than a single chest piece.

What people are forgetting is that there are many other forms of damage in the game and a LC doesn't make you invulnerable to physical damage, it just helps build a solid mitigation tank - or give a chunk of survivability to a glass cannon and/or evasion build. So, it doesn't solve the game on its own but dismissing it like that is a sign of trolling or inexperience. The two toughest characters I've played used LC and they were tankier than another character of mine who had 13k hitpoints and ~3500 hp/sec regen + leech.

"

adghar wrote:

"

raics wrote:

I for one think Cospri isn't in the same league as others because it's more situational. If poison does something for you, it's amazing, if not and your build isn't hanging on ring slots - you're better off with a doedre ring and a rare chest, not to mention you can get an absolutely kickass rare chest for the price, any type of chest you want.

But what about Hexproof penetration? Maybe it's just a personal pet peeve about inconsistency, but I don't like the idea of randomly being instagibbed just because a Hexproof monster shows up, or a Hexproof map suddenly being about 42.8% more dangerous than before. Enabling Enfeeble to work on nearly everything just makes Cospri's super drool worthy to me.

I also think we should have curse resistance instead of hexproof, the mod on Cospri is fortunately unique so they will be able to change it at any point to curse penetration if they decide to switch over. At that point I will agree that the item is godly because it will also work on bosses, but I'm not paying that kind of cash for an advantage against few blues or rares per map. The way I see it, the mod is something like Indomitable passive, certainly worth the points if you're nearby but not something you'd cross half a tree for.

Well, theres nothing stopping you getting 20k armour with a coil on. Im fairly sure you could get 20k armour + 12k evasion with a coil on using a 200% life build that has a good amount of melee damage notables and a fair amount of block.

If this is a prefix, and I presume it is because when everyone suggested adding a 15% conversion to ele rare chest mod they suggested it was a prefix and here it is, so...

130% increased base defense
115 to maximum life
15% phys to cold


thats as good as its probably going to get. Coil has around

115% increased base defense
79 to max life
30% phys to lightning


the base item, % defense and the life are never going to make up for the phys to ele covnersion. You cna have 1280 base defense on a coil, convert it all to armour. Pure ev wouldnt make any difference really, you can get 20k+ evasion with a coil on, your problem is not avoiding hits, its taking hits and surviving.


for me, the chests I use are rare es chests (usually hybrids), lightning coil and rare pure armour chests. Some builds I use a Lioneyes chest purely for dps, but thats not a mitigation choice. Legacy Kaoms and any shavs are strong of course (Ive never felt the need to use one on a long term build personally), but outside of that I dont really rate any of the other chests in the game, rare or unique, I think theyre all pretty much junk compared to these options.

"

Nephalim wrote:

Dear god, might you actually be serious? Belly is almost as much of a noobtrap as kintsugi.

Kintsugi...I'll fall in the noob trap every time. I have never felt as sturdy playing evasion/dodge as I do now. I play horribly and walk up into packs faces instead of staying at a safe distance.

The problem with Armour is that its subject to being useless on big hits where as things like basalt flasks and coil do not need you to invest in useless armor nodes so you can optimize useful stats. LC lets your 5000-6000 life zero armor low evasion character with a basalt flask and rumi's tank harder than most actual tanks.

I can't recall the last time I actively built armor or evasion outside of a mega clear speed queen of the forest build.

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_Tiem wrote:

The way armor works since 2.0

dafuq are you talking about?