The list of labyrinth-fix threads is now up to 318 threads.
The list of account names is now up to 767 account names.
This is indeed interesting, it means that every other lab hater opened a thread about it at some point. Which is baloney, nobody would believe that.
Anyway, I do agree there's some use for all this, they're probably reading from these threads whenever they gather for a barbecue or something, nothing like a few hearty laughs to start it off on a high note, get the mood going and all that. And then they move on to my balance suggestions if they REALLY want to knock the audience out.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
The list of labyrinth-fix threads is now up to 318 threads.
The list of account names is now up to 767 account names.
This is indeed interesting, it means that every other lab hater opened a thread about it at some point. Which is baloney, nobody would believe that.
Anyway, I do agree there's some use for all this, they're probably reading from these threads whenever they gather for a barbecue or something, nothing like a few hearty laughs to start it off on a high note, get the mood going and all that. And then they move on to my balance suggestions if they REALLY want to knock the audience out.
There are people that started threads but aren't on the account names list. Zaludoz seemed to do that. I don't know how many but I've run into that situation. Of course it could be checked but I'm not motivated to do that. At one point I did calculate how many threads didn't have authors marked on Zaludoz's list and it was around 5 dozen. I'm not saying that 5 dozen aren't on the list only that they weren't marked on the list.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
I don't know if this has been mentioned before (can't be bothered to read 144 pages), but I see this as a simple lab solution:
i) Those who complete the lab without dying will gain all rewards of the current lab.
ii) Those who die during the lab can keep trying, but only gain ascendancy points on completion. No enchants, no treasure boxes.
Thus, you want your 8 points, dieback 20 times until it's done. Those of us who can dodge traps and build characters able to clear simple content can have treasure chests and enchants.
Last edited by mrelusive on May 5, 2017, 5:09:44 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned before (can't be bothered to read 144 pages), but I see this as a simple lab solution:
i) Those who complete the lab without dying will gain all rewards of the current lab.
ii) Those who die during the lab can keep trying, but only gain ascendancy points on completion. No enchants, no treasure boxes.
Thus, you want your 8 points, dieback 20 times until it's done. Those of us who can dodge traps and build characters able to clear simple content can have treasure chests and enchants.
And then be able to bruteforce the acquisition of ascendancy points brainlessely by throwing your char on Izaro until it works ?
No thank you.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before (can't be bothered to read 144 pages), but I see this as a simple lab solution:
i) Those who complete the lab without dying will gain all rewards of the current lab.
ii) Those who die during the lab can keep trying, but only gain ascendancy points on completion. No enchants, no treasure boxes.
Thus, you want your 8 points, dieback 20 times until it's done. Those of us who can dodge traps and build characters able to clear simple content can have treasure chests and enchants.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
Last edited by Turtledove on May 5, 2017, 9:23:32 PM
It does, unless Izaro gets healed back to his initial state.
It would still make the lab significantly easier, and definitely remove some of the tension during the second and third encounter ( for those not playing HC ).
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
It does, unless Izaro gets healed back to his initial state.
It would still make the lab significantly easier, and definitely remove some of the tension during the second and third encounter ( for those not playing HC ).
You're right it should specifically state that, IMHO, to make it a better suggestion.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
The following 98 account names are being added to the account name list. These where taken from the Changes to the Labyrinth in the Development Manifesto forum. As such they will marked special in the list with a "#". Note that this list exceeds the 50,000 character limit and as such will be made in two posts.
This information may hopefully prove useful to GGG. For example they could take the total number of posters in the Feedback and Suggestions forum over the past year and divide that into 774 to get an estimate for the floor percentage of people disliking Labyrinth. Or alternatively, take 872 and divide it by the number of posters to the forum in general to get another potential floor for the percentage of people disliking Labyrinth.
The only reason I don't play HC anymore is because even if I got paid for it, I wouldn't go through the labs over and over again. I'd rather watch anime or have a massive diarrhea
Damn, I hate lab. It's the most annoying part of the game by a huge margin. The part that bugs me isn't Izaro or the bit about having to start over if you die even though the lab is long. The part that isn't fun and frustrates me are those traps that screw you over. Moving around traps like that is cool for Crash Bandicoot but just isn't meant for a top-down game where you click to move. That's just my take although I've heard many others say that the traps are the factor that makes it not fun.
GGG has spent time and (more importantly) money to program the labs into the game, they are here to stay. That said, easy and inexpensive tweaks would be to halve the damage from traps and increase the monster density. Also remove several rooms. Boom, labs are enjoyable again (for the first time).
I hate the lab. With a passion. I'm saddened by this news.
Screw the lab. Make it an endgame boss so I never ever have
to run it again. Then move the ascendancy points behind something else.
A lot of people hate the lab and running it every league really ruins the
gameplay for me. That's how much I hate it.
No alternate way of getting ascendancy points = fail.
I recently upgraded my connection and some of my PC but I still feel bad for the majority of players when it comes to lab, shortening the first lab does nothing!!! because it's 3 and 4 and aspects of the lab itself that where always the problem.
Until their is a way to not do a forced hardcore experience(death = end of lab) for all players I see lab as the part of the game that makes players leave in frustration.
Don't get me wrong I still play and will suffer through lab, but it's the only real thing in the game that make me want to quit.
Please allow for another way to get ascendancy points. Lab is tedious and keeping a lot of fun builds from ever becoming viable by blocking their access to necessary ascendancy points. Build diversity would go up with a change to way labs work. Give them an incentive for players who like to play them and don't make them necessary for builds to progress into endgame.
The problem with Labyrinth wasn't that the earlier difficulties took too long (they didn't), the problem with Labyrinth was that it's just not fun. I can already tell you that someone in your design meeting saw complaints about Lab and said, "Why don't we make it more incremental so that it feels like it's building up to Uber Lab?". That person is dumb.
The trash sections of Lab need to be completely different (eg, removed entirely) because trash and traps aren't very fun and they aren't very challenging. Some people die to them, sure (I have), and it's ended HC runs I'm sure. That isn't a justification for keeping it. Lab would be much better if it was Izaro 3 times, with 3 random challenges and with the random ability for Izaro to summon Argus to help him. The challenges should be more mechanically difficult and deal more with "adding the time" required for GGG to feel good about an Uber Lab run. They also don't need to build on what Izaro can "do", we know he's got giga attacks, the challenges can be more about solving a puzzle while being attacked, or playing some type of memory game. Solving the puzzle moves you to the next fight, solving it without failure gets you the key.
Nobody cares about Lab, nobody would even do the lab if it didnt provide skill points, nobody wants to even do the lab. How about you do something intelligent with your time and just REMOVE the lab that is a giant waste of time. All you get is crash after crash in it, it provides nothing of value except maybe the boots. Nobody wants to spend time running them, and the people that build specific characters to run them get to rob other people of their offering by killing them in uber lab carry run by forcing them to pay up front then when they die make other person pay again for the trash place.
REMOVE IT PERIOD ITS TRASH SAME AS THE DEV THAT DESIGNED IT!
After trying a handful of times and only getting past the first Izaro encounter a single time, I quit the league that introduced it. I actually stopped playing PoE for several months afterwards because of the Labyrinth.
For me, the Lab is frustrating and tedious because it resets every time you die. Perhaps if they got rid of that penalty (which I know they won't) I might consider it the challenge GGG intended it to be and try my hand at it again.
I would also add that I'd prefer to both see Ascendancy points separated from the Labyrinth (or at least separated from the process of having to run it FOUR DAMN TIMES not to mention what is still an obnoxious number of trials) AND to see the Labyrinth fixed so that it becomes something that's fun to test yourself against instead of a way to throw money down the drain (because unlike sac sets, which I can easily farm for myself because the common frags drop plentifully and can be used to farm the uncommon ones, lab keys are few and far between AND all-or-nothing). Again, I WANT to enjoy the lab. I'd prefer not to have a necessary part of my build tied to it, and let it be something for people who want to do it or who want the rewards it can give, but if it's fixed so that it's actually playable by the same build I use for the rest of the game, then I would be one of those people. But right now I resent it every time I have to set foot in anything related to it.
That most definitely won't change the fact that i hate it from the bottom of my heart to go in there...
And the trials... omg such an epic waste of fucking time! Every league start... over and over again...
You guys rly need to make these things account based instead of league based (like the sion unlock)!
Boss farming is the thing that i miss most in PoE, its one of these things that i loved in D2.
But ubber lab farming is such a nightmare i attempted it once for a week and quit the game for a month!
Farming for an enchantment you want is about as much fun as gouging your eyes out. The odds are so incredibly slim as to be foolhardy to even attempt.
I absolutely loathe being forced to run the lab as a requirement. I've ripped to it sure and that can happen anywhere but at least most of the game can be played in a way you find enjoyable (shape your favorite maps, fight some exciting bosses).
The lab isn't fun. The Izaro fight can be so ridiculous for life based builds as has already been mentioned. For HC players there is no way to try a lab run without planning to likely rip your character to SC so you can try out or practice content and then waste time remaking it for HC. If I were a new player I'd rage quit the first time I had to experience something so in congruent with the rest of the game.
For the love of this game, please, don't keep ascendancy points tied to the Lab. From all the comments this seems to reflect the thoughts of an overwhelming majority of your player base.
If you want players to run the lab several hundred times per league then just give Izaro a 0.0001% chance of dropping a crown that has a headhunter like stat on it and watch people flock to it.
I just want to say first that I love this game and the obviously passionate dev team behind it, and I plan to continue to play it for a long time, much like I did with Diablo 2. With that said, I simply cannot stand the lab and feel it is the absolute worst part of the game, by a wide margin. It's to the point where I haven't even bothered running uber on my last two characters because I hate it so much, and I wait to run the earlier labs until I'm beyond overleveled and overgeared for it so I can just blast through it and get it over with.
My frustration with the lab does have an easy solution though: don't gate ascendancy points behind it. The fact that ascendancy points are practically mandatory and literally define your build yet are gated behind the most frustrating aspect of the entire game feels like a poor design choice to me, and I know I'm not alone in this sentiment.
If you just made the lab even more rewarding through more treasure keys and more exclusive and powerful uniques (like Death's Door), I feel there would still be enough reason to run it for those who like it, and as it is it's already one of the most profitable things to do in the game if you have a good runner.
Overall I feel like it is just a very frustrating and annoying thing for many players (and I haven't even mentioned the tedium of trials) and it's something that GGG should at least think about changing. That's my two cents, sorry for the long post, thanks for reading.
Just look at this thread. 95% of the comments HATE this content. Seems GGG is so afraid of going soft on players, they'd rather frustrate them than make lab changes to streamline character progression.
At a certain point in lifespan of a new game feature, it should be made more simplistic and significantly less time consuming, even somewhat trivial since more time sinking elements have been added. If you don't, you make the road of character progress even longer and more exhausting to the player.
Removing Cruel and Merc because it's boring an repetitive, but keeping other boring and repetitive progression dependant features like lab runs makes no sense.
The future was looking so good too with the 3.0 update. Keeping lab runs will be the nasty bitter flavor that keeps the freshness of 3.0 tasting as good as it should.
I'm new to PoE and so far like it a lot, except for this lab stuff. Every time I want to try out a new build I absolutely dread thinking about having to do the stupid lab multiple times again just to get my ascendancy points...it sucks.
I hope they really make it less of a pain in the ass to do.
First, sorry for bad English
Second, Lab is a relly important thing in PoE. Why? Enchantments, rewards and ascedancy points. But for new players, the most satisfied thing is becoming a subclass. I still remember when I first time became a jugg after 40 mins running and abou 5 fails, that feeling is as satisfied as an ex drop. Lab is hard, especially for newbies. But that is the reason make it unique and it is also the reason why some people quit PoE ( besides linking 6s). So why not adjust the lab to suitable for beginners and experienced players.
Beginners do lab for ascedency points, while experienced players do lab for enchantment, chest loot, and make money out of it.
How about this, there is no traps or reduce traps, less rooms, easier boss figt when you first attempt lab but your reward is only ascedancy points and just points, no enchantment,no 4 keys run, no loot. And after you get that 2 ascedancy points, lab is backed to its usual form: traps, more room, harder boss fight and the reward is enchantment and loot.
Therefore, beginners can get all their 8 ascedancy ponits easily and experienced player can get their enchantments and loot after getting their ascedancy points.
Hope to hear your opinions
Edit 1: just want to share my exp, do normal lab after reaching act 3 cruel, cruel lab after reaching act 3 merc, merc lab when you are 75+ or when you feel ready and uberlab... look on /global 820 to see if anyone carries for free :)). Trust me, first time attemp the lab and succeed in the first time feel great. You can still make it to merc without doing becoming a subclass
I hate lab, even though I've made a few characters that have managed to run all 4 labs and I even have a character that could farm it I think it's a terrible idea for a variety of reasons.
1. New players - Especially with new player influx aiming to be the all time high I think dying repeatedly in a lab in order to get key points will discourage a lot of people right away. Considering this game is going to be launched on Xbox I believe it to be a terrible idea to keep something as frustrating as Lab in the main game especially considering that it's tied to ascendancy points. So many new players (Especially in HC Leagues) will probably exit/uninstall this game once they experience a legendary BS Merc/Uber death.
2. The lore - All things considered having a challenge or series of challenges to ascend and gain access to new points is a great idea. However, logically speaking it would make more sense to have character specific challenges. a Duelist, having to prove himself in the area vs a series of waves and a final boss, Templar teaming up with Elreon to take on waves of demonic monsters in a test of faith....etc...etc. It doesn't make sense for all of these character to have to run the exact same trials and tests. Why would a dumb-ass brute Marauder be trying to solve puzzles? all in all, Having the to fight the Emperor at the end could still be used but the manner at which all character classes arrive could be expanded and changed up a bit. Making 7 different characters and doing the same things makes little sense to me. I believe the lore of the game would become much more interesting of this aspect was changed to suit the characters.
3. Time & Currency - This isn't most people's full-time job. Even the most hardened of vets usually play this game a few hours a day as they have other things in life to do. I'm not suggesting the content be made easier(tho that appears to be the plan). I personally think it would be in the best interest of GGG to separate lab from ascendancy trials. Making it a completely optional but potentially profitable venture instead of something you're forced to suffer through. Perhaps having labs with increased drops and some other special rewards for those who choose to farm it. Perhaps even Maintaining the Offering version of Izaro as a super boss *as difficult as guardians/shaper* but with the stipulation that he only drops unique item(s). This way people who want to use their time attempting to become rich through labs may do so while those who just want to progress in the game can also do that.
4. Contributing to path of cookie cutter - Like a lot of the content that's been added to the game in recent years, It's become clear that most people would much rather copy someone else's good design then attempt to build their own unique builds. As the game's been reduced to which characters have insta-clear speed/End game boss farming viability, combined with the continued buffs in order to keep up with this the game has reached a point where it's simply to risky to explore and Lab only contributes to this. Having a character design that would "just be so amazing" if you could get these 2-4 points. However, you are unable to do this as a trap or Izaro keeps killing you just when you reach the final room after 10-20 minutes of fumbling around.
This game has so much potential for unique builds with such an elaborate skill tree. Unfortunately do to the content most people just sit back every major patch and wait for the higher ups to hand down this season's viable meta builds. Though some things are being done to address I think the folks at GGG have missed a big chance to make the game much smoother especially for newer people. That's just my 2 cents.
PS. It appears I won't have to hunt/buy more offerings at least.
This is a joke, right? You are making the main game less repetitive by changing the act system, and now you proud of it, even saying how clever you are in any possible communication; but then not taking any action about the most annoying part of the game?! really?!
PS: I quit the game about a year when you first introduced this piece of .... All my life I hate lara croft games, jump run click etc. that`s why i only play Arpg as an action game; if this is not an arpg anymore, pls let me know.!
If you just cannot see how many ppl just buy the lab runs for points, and do not want to try it (not because it is hard, it is just annoying), not having fun with it ; which game you are playing?!
-trials? why so many? ...clear them all. I understand you want to get players used to traps before entering lab itself, but still they are annoying, and no function at all. Ok then fair, just a set about six before first lab, that`s all, why we need more than this?!
-Why still 4 labs? why at all? are you so lazy to change the point system? it isnt a necessity that all 8 points should come from the lab. 4 from the lab 4 from somewhere else; just think about it.
-What you will do about disconnect issues etc? I dont care how short it will be etc, it will be still annoying to start from the beginning.
-Will you ever do something about your stupid Izaro who cannot understand that he lost the fight and should go his lair?
-Why so many phase animations, waiting waiting and waiting... lab itself not enough to make us suffer?
-many others but I dont want to go in details when there are main problems.
I do like the availability of the Labyrinth's right from Sarn Encampment, part of the annoyance was farming Offering to the Goddess'
I do agree this really doesn't change the lab much for what makes it annoying. Why not add a checkpoint system at each Aspirant's Trail rooms. Each time you die in between one, you just spawn back at the previous Aspirant's Trail room. 95% of the annoyance is having to run the whole damn thing over again when you get cheap shot by Izaro or Traps and the best part is you can still track lab runs this way for leaderboards the timer just doesn't stop if you die and respawn if that's what your worried about.
The lab in of itself is a neat concept and it's not a terrible idea but it has some bad wrinkles needing ironing.
I want to add to the comments that the Lab is the worst part of the game. I'm absolutely not as skilled a player as many of you. I hit the wrong flasks constantly, misposition myself, or don't correctly react to telegraphed damage. So I shouldn't get end-game rewards as easily, absolutely. But the uber lab is absolutely infuriating for a player like me. Learning the Izaro mechanics, getting a feel for what damage to run from or tank, etc, is incredibly not-fun, as it takes twenty minutes to tip-toe or mad-rush through those ridiculous visual shit-shows that are the uber traps. I can navigate the Merciless traps, because I can see what the hell is damaging me. The aura totems are not always targetable, and hearing that horrible grinding noise as a buzzsaw is apparently directly under me makes steam come out of my ears.
Again, I'm not a great player. I don't want to be hand-held. But learning an encounter that is 100% vital to a character should not require me becoming angry enough to break my keyboard a dozen times. I get no sense of accomplishment after beating Izaro, not after how many times I've quit the game for a week after an infuriating three hours of game time.
I doubt it'll ever change, but there will always be a large contingent of players who think the place completely blows.
Some sort of incremental method of achieving the fourth ascendancy points could solve my issue. Require the points to cost 100 pints of Izaro blood or whatever. You get the full 100 if you kill him, but maybe 1 pint for a first phase kill and 5 for a second. That way players like me, who are simply not good at the lab, can still grind our way to the ascendencies without nearly (or actually) uninstalling the game in fury.
Please just add an opt out where you fight Izario, get your points, dont get any treasure chests or enchants.
I would love this, Idc about Izaro fights (for the "challenge" of them), lab drops, etc.
I just want my ascension. Hell I would pay to skip the stupidity that is labs not only for myself but for everyone I introduce to the game.
They buckle a bit at the learning curve but I can talk them through that, the labs? Ha... dunzo.
They leave and do not return, and I can't talk them back into hell I don't even want to do them and I've played since CB. They are not fun they are not challenging, just a time sink.
And lord, running someone through them trying to explain to them don't run now, don't stand there, keep up. Etc?
Then they die and you have to explain no you can't restart from where you were, no I cannot drop you a portal to me, like I have been able to IN EVERY aspect of the game up until now, basically I cannot help you. We will have to rerun it, and this time, if you die again. I am continuing on without you.
I don't have fun playing labyrinth at all. I do it because I'm obligated to have the points. So many trials and suffering for what? Guess I should play Scion so I don't even bother getting those points.
I'm sad that we still have to do trials, I just feel like this whole thing is tedious and annoying. It has nothing to do with the character, It's a labyrinth so I don't get how It's suppose to grant you these special powers.
I've seen so many new players struggle as well, dying and retrying. Which ends with them quitting the labyrinth all together.
This seems positive overall! Overall I'm pleased with the changes GGG is making :) My thoughts from a HC perspective:
* Trials are super tedious and it seems common/safest to run them super overleveled making them extra boring. Cutting out 6 is great but honestly, once you do the first six I think that could be it for Cruel and Merciless Lab. I'm not opposed to gating Uber Lab behind RNG trials, but it's not my favorite, I usually just avoid builds that require Uber Lab.
* The "no portal" aspect is really awkward. Sometimes I just have to quit in the middle if someone rings the doorbell or needs a hand. Such an odd limitation.
* It's quite unfriendly to non-perfect networks. A random lag spike can easily leave you sitting in the middle of a deadly trap, and it's SO frustrating to get 80% through and get disconnected.
I don't mind having to solve some puzzles and figuring out how to get my build through the lab. It's a nice challenge. But personally I'd love to see Cruel + Merc trials removed, and allow portals and rejoining an instance. Then I can answer doorbells and at least retrace my steps in the case of a disconnect without resolving the same exact puzzle layouts.
+1 for the separation of Ascendancy Points from the lab... Seriously, make the lab challenging and rewarding in a way that doesn't involves getting Ascendancy Points, which are mandatory for all characters... The main issue that made people dislike the lab, is the fact that you locked an important feature behind an extremely frustrating experience...
How about making us unlock Ascendancy Points by doing those trials, instead of running through the lab for them? It would at least make people feel less bored when having to complete those trials...
GGG has the power to make the game better for everybody, but for some reason, refuses to see the problem...
Spoiler
Inb4 Ascendancy Points requiring that you to do Uber Atziri runs to get them.
The most disliked developers in the world.
Why not delete the labyrinth?
For self-satisfaction of ourselves, we should change to a map of high difficulty.
You only have to go who wants to go.
I understand why it is forced.
Present specifically to see who wants the labyrinth.
For me it is those traps, bad confusing layout and the one portal limit that makes hate the lab so much.
Can't agree more!
18 of 20 times it's the traps that kills me.. (1 disconnect and 1 burst damage)
I really #¤&%#¤&% hate that playstyle. If I would want that style I go play an FPS instead.
Either change it to the normal 6 portal business so I atleast can grind it OR remove the points from the lab and place those elsewhere.
I can't care less for the enchants, those can stay in the lab as far as I care :p
Good work, I feel like you guys have really worked hard on these changes, good job GGG.
I feel like everything is in place but I have one suggestion:
Spoiler
Remove it.
best comment i've seen in years well said sir. remove the goddamn bullshit from the game and give us ascendacy points every 20 levels and be done with it, one year + of that cancer in the game is enough.
I am a newish player and to me the best part of Poe is making dumb builds. However I feel like the Labs really hinder and stifles build creativity as ascendancy points are locked behind it and having to run Labs just to make your trash build semi-viable isn't fun at all especially since your build is trash. Make ascendancy points available through other means in the future update. It actually would makes sense thematically for ascendancy points to be gained at certain Lore defining events like killing a God in Fall of Oriath as with those victories in battle you are ascending past what it means to be a mortal and progressing into a legend. Maybe still have the lab give you your first two ascendancy points as it is the trial of ascendancy. I don't think the labs should be removed I feel like they are a wonderful challenge but the rewards it offers (ascendancy points) are to game-defining to justify the grind in order to achieve them. Instead what I would like to see (suggest) as possible rewards for completing lab are:
Normal difficulty: Get your first two ascendancy points. (thematically makes sense since this is the trial of ascendancy but in order to get the other points make the players kill gods and such)
Hard difficulty: Izaro always drops a random unique at the last fight. Uniques level requirement ranges from 1-55. Izaro can master craft an item giving the highest roll for an affix but cannot craft an item whose level is above 55.
Cruel difficulty: Izaro always drops a random unique at the last two fights. Unique level requirement ranges from 1-68. Izaro can master craft an item twice giving the highest roll for the affixes but cannot craft an affix that requires the an item level of 68 or higher.
Uber difficulty: Izaro always drops a random unique at all fights. Unique level requirement ranges from 20 and up. Izaro can master craft an item twice giving the highest roll for the affixes depending on item's level and a slim chance to fully socket and link an item instead of giving it an affix. New crafting bench in lab final where Izaro can give +10 to either strength/dexterity/intelligence on an item without counting as an affix (a rare item can have a full six affixes and an Izaro mod).
This is a reward tier that I think would would make the Labyrinth a tempting end game option. Thematically I feel like these reward tiers also makes more sense since wouldn't Izaro want his successor to be wearing the proper regalia of an Emperor.
But seriously having the lab as a wall that prevents my shitty builds from becoming godly builds isn't fun at all.
And, like i was expecting, not a single word on the (imo) most aggravating flaws:
1) add waypoints before each 3 Izaro fights (if i play standard, WHY must i be forced with your "hardcore flavour" and repeat all from the beginning if i die? Expecially if i die at third fight...)
2) don't make anymore traps clusters so long that they go offscreen for 2-3 screens away, so that a poor player is forced to run "blindly"
Lab is the worst nonsense in this game. Why are you tainting this new 10 act system with it? It should be side content. It should not be required progress for earning powerful skill points and it shouldn't be the only way to earn enchants. You could have really easily rolled ascendancy skill points into the new quests. No one wanted you to nerf normal and cruel lab, this shit was already trivial. The problem is trying to enchant your helm with something relevant to your char and just having to build around uber izaro in general for your final ascendancy points. I still don't have it on my legacy occultist after like 26 attempts. This char can do all kinds of late game stuff effectively but it's cursed my existence to kill 3rd phase izaro even with previous mechanics mitigated. He just melts through me like I'm not even there, at any range no matter how hard i concentrate on dodging him because I'm not built to face tank and I'm not fast enough to dodge back and forth in the 5 feet we get with 100% accuracy. I can do T15 maps all night no problem but I can't do this garbage content but this garbage content is absolutely required for the progress I want. What about your players who aren't awesome twitch players and will never be no matter how much they practice? Fuck us right, we don't deserve ascendancy points and enchants because we don't meet some arbitrary bar of twitch skill.
[whinge on]
I really dislike the labyrinth too. I only run it enough for my characters to not completely suck.
Standing around waiting for things to line up or get out of the way or stop firing, waiting for lava to subside, clicking buttons in the right sequence, traipsing around looking for keys... none of these things improve the PoE gaming experience.
MORE MONSTERS, LESS TIME-WASTING PUZZLES PLEASE!!
[whinge off]
Hope these changes make the process of running the lab more enjoyable.
I hate the Labyrinth, i think setting up a poll on this to decide weather to keep the lab or to remove it totally. Doing the lab is just tedious and not fun at all.
Why the hell are we now required to do the bloody Lab in order? What, it wasn't annoying enough before? Why can't we just adapt the way it works in Standard atm - completing a merciless version of the Lab counts as cruel and normal completion too?
GGG, I understand that you can't just remove the damned thing from the game after wasting so much money on it, but at least try to make it less of a chore, not more.
I would appreciate that aswell. As some1 who really dislikes the lab, it would be a relief to only do it once.
Let's just make it so, that you get all the points when you complete the uber lab, or 6/8 for doing the old merc equivalent.
For those who like doing all the lab variants, let there drop uniques which can only be found in lab of that difficulty or other incentives to do so.
Just give everyone options! Seems like a simple solution...
Anyway, looks like some people have posted their dream lab changes so I will post mine. Please keep in mind that I am only expressing what I would enjoy as a player, not what I think everyone would enjoy. Still, I can dream.
Lab vanishes except as a map. Ascendancy, points, enchants, and treasure chests are rewards for beating A) the 6 trials in Acts 1-3 + B) the final bosses in Acts 4 (2 pts), 6 (2 pts), 8 (2pts), and 10 (2 pts). Those rewards are given only once per character, the first time each boss is killed by that character. To change ascendancy or get additional enchants, a lab map could be run at different difficulty levels, but lab would be gone as a mandatory part of the game. Players would get access to that map by completing the 6 trials found in maps, and after that players could just buy offerings or get them from running more trials. You could still have people racing/farming uber difficulty of lab, but now players would get meaningful rewards for finishing main game content and not have to do lab unless they wanted to change ascendancy or farm it.
Sigh... I'm sorry, but making the Normal Lab shorter and removing some trials is not going to solve the problem a lot of us have with the Lab. When it was introduced to the game about a year ago I kept DCing all the time and it made me ragequit until Legacy league, and tbh I wouldn't even play Legacy if it wasn't for Relics because there was no change to the Lab all this time, but I compromised. I had the worst time in my gaming life doing all Labs with 3 characters and that says a lot I think. At least for the first 3 Labs it's not that annoying, but DCing 6 times in a row (twice right before entering the final Izaro phase) in the Uber Lab is like throwing currency down the drain. I'm surprised at myself for not ragequiting again right there!
I was just hoping that with 3.0 and the removal of difficulties there would be a Lab overhaul, like allowing you to continue from a checkpoint, but removing all treasure keys you have and all future ones + disabling the enchantment device. This way you can at least Ascend without worrying about DCs. Or remove Ascendancy points altogether from Lab and just have it for those that want loot and enchantments. Or anything really that would make our lives easier!
I am still going to play 3.0 even with this crap in the game, but I will not be bying the new supporter pack, that I intended to buy so I would get access to the beta. If you can't admit that the current implementation of the Lab is a mistake, then I can't really support you, even if 3.0 ends up being one of the best expansions in gaming.
I'd like to express my utter disdain for any kind of labyrinth. So when I saw there might be some changes I had hoped it will finally become OPTIONAL. Right now, you simply have to do it, wheter you like it or not. Even most meta builds have to.
It can be in the game for all I care - some people might even enjoy it (there are weirder things than that in the world...possibly).
Maybe that can be a solution-if you buy the run from somebody (reasons being for example you're too weak/hate lab), why not let the person port in to Ascending room/device thing? Fight can scale with the party size (so the suckers running it have to work for what they're getting). It can also check the party state when entering the lab(obviously to prevent unlimited selling of 1 run).
Don't want to pay? Hey, the 'great' labyrinth awaits you. Hate it? You'd have an alternative with my way...
I'd like to express my utter disdain for any kind of labyrinth. So when I saw there might be some changes I had hoped it will finally become OPTIONAL. Right now, you simply have to do it, wheter you like it or not. Even most meta builds have to.
It can be in the game for all I care - some people might even enjoy it (there are weirder things than that in the world...possibly).
Maybe that can be a solution-if you buy the run from somebody (reasons being for example you're too weak/hate lab), why not let the person port in to Ascending room/device thing? Fight can scale with the party size (so the suckers running it have to work for what they're getting). It can also check the party state when entering the lab(obviously to prevent unlimited selling of 1 run).
Don't want to pay? Hey, the 'great' labyrinth awaits you. Hate it? You'd have an alternative with my way...
(...and I play HC only)
Just make it optional.Its stupid to have to pay people.Lab is easily the worst content ggg has released.
"
What I don't understand is:
3.0 was the perfect time to REMOVE lab or at least limit lab to uber lab and let the rest of the ascendancy points come from boss kills.
The fact that an awesome ARPG has a shitty "pull this lever and avoid that trap" section in a 3D isometric setting where its hard to see what the fuck you are doing and even worse one wrong move will set you back either a full lab (softcore) or a full char (hardcore) is an atrocity.
Normal to Merc lab really needs to go, but until GGG realizes this I will vote with my money.
NO MORE MTX OR PACKS WILL BE BOUGHT until then, I hope a lot of people will follow through because quite frankly it seems like this is the only thing GGG understands as of late.
Also, I can't wait to see how Xbox users will react to the shit fest that is lab, maybe THAT will make GGG think twice.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
Last edited by Turtledove on May 18, 2017, 8:12:42 AM
When I read "remove the labyrinth, suppress the trials, ...", I understand: "make the game more casual". When I read "it's frustrating", I understand "it's frustrating to chain it to get his helmet’s enchantment."
The problem is there. But, these enchants can be exchanged, paying the high price certainly, but it’s possible.
The labyrinth is something unique, unparalleled in other games. It’s a challenge, which offers multiple rewards: chests, ascendency’s points, enchant. It’s not really hard, it requires concentration, mainly for traps. A large part of the PoE end game is farming high end map and mid end boss (atziri, gardians, …) as quickly as possible. One of the most appreciate thing of a build is his clear speed … But the lab don’t love the speed.
And I apologize, but the lab is farmable, as long as you use the right tools and the right methods. But (the meta) CI is not the most adequate method ...
When I write "remove the labyrinth" I mean "remove the platforming". If I wanted platforming, I'd play Super Mario, a genre I very much dislike. Or one of those Necrodancer style games, which other people may inexplicably enjoy, but I find terrible for game mechanics (and which the labyrinth slightly reminds me of).
Primarily remove those falling/spike doors: why is there a moment in an ARPG where I just have to stare at the screen and wait for some meaningless and consequence-less animation?
And then the lever "puzzles": a remarkably efficient way of generating the feeling that I'm wasting time.
It doesn't help that in the endgame labyrinth, the area lvl is too low, so I'm just walking through the intermediary areas without paying attention, again amplifying the sensation of "why am I wasting my time here?".
Change the labyrinth to three directly chained Izaro fights, reduce the reward density per minute such that it corresponds to the current one, and I'm fine. I simply want no classic platforming in my gameplay.
Or make it completely optional and ignorable, which it is not right now.
From a genre-focused standpoint, the Labyrinth is one of the worst designed levels in ARPG history. PoE would do well without it, like the other ARPGS (and I've played more than half a dozen since D2). And it and would certainly not become more casual.
Yeah I, like most here, absolutely detest the lab. It's not fun. It's repetitive. It's frustrating to navigate. It also takes a long time. It has to be done 3 - 4 times for each character. As a HC player who dies frequently, I feel as if I'm constantly having to re-run the lab.
Can we perhaps have the option to fight Izaro immediately and forego the treasure key / enchantment?
Or if we do the merciless lab first, can we also be granted the ascendancy points for cruel and normal?
Lab really is one of the best things in the game IMO. It's very important that it guards the ascendancy points, as they are waay too powerful to be given out for free. Also learn how to do the lab instead of hating it.
100% agree
What does learning how to do the lab have to do with liking/hating it? You can know how to do something and still hate it. The main issues I see people complain about when it comes to the lab is that we are forced every league to do all the trials and that it is the ONLY content that you can't get a "true" carry. By "true" carry, I mean you can still die b/c you still have to run the entirety of the lab. You may like the lab but I might hate it. Why should I be forced to spend so much time doing something I hate when the rest of the content in the game isn't like that?
To all those people talking about majority or minority, look at the numbers. Comparing lab ladders shows that not alot of people do lab. If you don't want to look at league, look at standard it should be stable and has about 100 people running it. That's it.
In all leagues today it's maybe less than 2k total players running lab. All those people that freaking love lab don't run it in reality or they are the real minority.
As a reference you could look up steam stats about active players on steamcharts. Ridiculous.
Low level trials and labs just waste of time and boring like hell. Just give 2 ascendancy points at level 20, 40, 60, 80 and make Uber Lab endgame map for whoever like it.
Labyrinth, as it is now, is BAD. Don't get me wrong, I was really frustrated by it, but beaten it and had this sweet feeling of accomplishment, joy of overcoming it's obstacles, beating final boss.
But I still thinks it is bad for the game (as it is). Why? Because it belongs to endgame (somewhere in the land of difficult challenges where Atziri and Abaxoth are). It doesn't belong to the big and rich part of the game which is bulding your character.
Lab is great as a place, where u can test your char, how strong, versatile it is, and also test yourself and your ability to play the game well.
At the same time it is horrible, as a thing, you NEED to beat in order to make your char stronger.
It's like Abaxoth fight - if it was mandatory I would curse the existence of it, BUT - as an additional challenge with no extra rewards apart from - "hey I was able to do that guy!" - I was actually looking forward to it. Just to see if my char and my build was strong enough to kill the bastard :). Because - in case it wasn't - I wasn't really loosing anything.
Of course Lab need some incentives for players to run it - but don't tie it to progression. Make some MTXses as a reward, titles, whatever thing you like, as long as it will not make your char much stronger.
But let us ascend by killing gods! It would fit from perspective of mechanics, lore, gameplay, etc.
pls just remove everything but boss fight, lab is sooooooo boring, waiting for traps makes me sleep and waiting is something that should never happen in an arpg....everything else is great! (lab is not)
So basically the only changes are 1/3 less trials for the first three labs and a bit less time wasted on normal lab? Not really impressed and lab will still stay the same tedious chore that you will have to complete on every single character. The problem for me is that lab gameplay just gets super boring after doing it a few times and there are no rewards or w/e in there except for ascendency points - enchants and chests are really only worth it on merc/uber.
Lab is the worst experience in this game. Its unnecessarily stressful and can kill an otherwise viable for hardcore character in a second. I'm all for an optional challenge but requiring this place to get ascendancy points is stupid, especially for hardcore characters. We cant unlock the full potential of our builds without going into an area that can kill you for the tiniest mistake or bit of bad luck on trap combinations.
Sounds like no real changes for someone who's never actually beaten a labyrinth before? The boss has ended two of my HC runs, but the labyrinth itself just felt super tedious for me. The fight seemed challenging and fun but running the labyrinth to get there was just a terrifically un-fun way to RIP a character.
Essence league was the most fun I'd had in the game since beta, but the labs put me off of it again. Tried briefly coming back for Legacy but at this point I'm hoping the expansion brings me back in. I was hoping the "single playthrough" overhaul would include only needing to do a single labyrinth as well :\
Who cares about early labs? they are already short due to out-lvling them...
This is extremely disappointing. I didn't expect a huge nerf to the lab but I expected *something* and this is nothing. Why is the lab untouchable? what is so special about it that they are willing to ignore all the valid complaints and do nothing to improve player experience with it?
The Lab is a reason not to play.
If I wish to play a decent high level char I have to do it for the benefits. Or I can just play around a while with low level maps as long as I can handle them without the bonus of the hated Lab. Or I can just quit.
Though I would like the former I might stick to the latter.
I wish you would run a poll to see how many of us actually LIKE the traps and current implementation of the labs. You can pull stats that say 100% of the players have run the labs but it is semi-required to finish builds. I personally detest the traps in the lab. I know they are someone's love child at GGG but they are not a fan favorite in any way shape or form. Yes, some people run them repeatedly for the enchants and loot. Yes some people make builds just to run labs and farm them or even speed farm them in minutes. That does not make them a popular playstyle choice for everyone. Do a poll and then decide if you want to force feed more of this totally different playstyle and design down our throats or provide your players with options to achieve the same ascendancy points via an alternative mechanic.
TLDR Labs are NOT fun for everyone.
"
I am all for the lab being shortened. Nice step in the right direction. I would like to see a system implemented that used checkpoints after each Izaro kill, that way you can restart if you rip say on the last set of traps before the final Izaro fight. That being said many people seem to be on the same page about attaining ascendancy points elsewhere. The lab would work perfectly fine as an end game map/enchanting/farming area. I don't think I've ever seen an issue in poe so many people agree upon more: mandatory lab runs suck.
The lab, like Atziri and Shaper, has a place in the game. A good place. It is a vector for earning some of the best loot (well, Uber lab is good for this), as well as adding some interesting enchantment options.
However, Ascendency should not be tied to the lab.
Too many builds simply can't deal with Izaro. Do you rely on a Vaal skill (e.g. Vaal Grace) as a layer of defense? Does not work for Izaro, sorry. Are you life-based? Izaro's ridiculously counter-intuitive invisible hit-boxes of doom have a one-shot for you.
Additionally, insanely dim lighting, multi-screen trap gauntlets, and trap combinations that cannot be navigated hit-less are absolutely terrible from a platforming perspective. There are spike + saw blade layouts that you cannot time because you are racing through the part you could see with no chance to analyze the portion that is off screen until you are standing on it. There are roomba + spike dart layouts that actually offer no window of safety while traversing due to their timing.
All of this can exist and be a good thing, pushing players to make dedicated lab-runners if they want to run lab. We already have this with Atziri and Shaper and the highest tiers of league challenges. Some (optional) content should only be possible for a build dedicated to that content.
But, I CANNOT use my dedicated lab build to run the Ascendency for one of my other characters.
That, right there, is the fatal flaw of lab. It is content that is required for builds that cannot be built around running that content. No one is required to run Atziri to progress past level 80. No one has to kill Merciless Malachai before running maps. No other aspect of character progression is gated behind a task that (massively) favors specific builds over others.
Leave lab in the game. Leave the option to run it at differing challenge levels, with the cool enchants gated behind those levels. Leave the loot in Uber lab as is, and buff the loot a bit in the lower challenge levels. Add some slight deterministic weighting to the enchant system for helms (the current system is the Keno of RNG crafting -- just a black hole to throw one's time into).
Lab farmers will emerge as a play style, just like Atziri farmers and Shaper farmers. And the rest of the builds in the game can progress from Twilight Strand to maps without having to engage in content for which they are severely sub-optimal.
The problem with the labyrinth is that silver keys are useless, chests in the first 3 difficulties are useless and there are too many dead-ends making you backtrack and wasting time.
Some of the enchants are good but not worth 20 minutes of your time for items you're gonna change very soon.
It generally feels like an annoying chore you have to do in order to enable your build.
After a few hundred labyrinths it is only annoying. I would prefer if it only needs one run per league and than counts for every character. Make the lab skipable, if it is completed, and let us fight Izaro directly with a higher difficulty.
Well even the ppl that hate the lab (myself included) agree that Izaro is fine. The problem with lab is not the boss fight but the traps. I think traps should give some debufs/buffs to mobs nearby (dangerous buffs that u must take care or rip) but its insane that they do so much damage and are way too close of eachother in some layouts.
I strongly beleave that person, who is responsible for Labyrinth design riding to the GGG's office on It-bike from South Park. Because only person with that understanding of "good design" could come up with Lab as it is now (and will still be).
No matter what with even these few chances lab still sucks. You don't even address the retarded traps an the over damage they do. You don't address loosing a connection in Uber labs. Make more portals an address traps and what ever else to make labs not suck. In conclusion labs still suck.
Maybe is a question of time, the reason GGG is doinng this way. IF they have to revamp to Lab completly they have to delay Fall of Oriathh further more.
So my Idea to improve Lab Is the following. I don`t know what the level of the zones of trials will be but i think if GGG do it right they could set trials in some manner that they match the points that you likely have to do Labs in current way so they can set what i have in mind, that is:
-6 trials (you fight Izaro at end of of each off them and you are rewarded with a ascency point if successful) so this way u dont have to do Labs for Ascency, off course trials should be a little longer(like uber trials but not that lengthy) and have a adicional room for Izaro fight. When enter room you get full healed and pots should be automatic full to be a fair fight.You just get Ascendecy points, no chests our enchants.
-After the 6 trials are complet you can enter "Merciless" Lab were you can have everything you get in the current merciless lab except that you already have the Ascendecy Points so you just do it if masochist,want chest keys and\or enchants. To be a little rewarding run this Lab you could get twice the keys or double enchants you normaly do or get a Offering to Godess where you
currently click to get the Ascendecy when you successful completed.
-Uber trials and Uber Lab are fine mechanically speaking. GGG should increase the spawn of trials to at last one every 3 maps and add a choice so you can increase the level of Uber Lab to 80 or more (optional of course) ,they should nerf poison darts slow or make plates that activate them a little more prominent speciallly when they are together with other traps because I die to many times for them LOL.
-To get uber Ascency points you will have option at entrance to only need to defeat Izaro once, but the Izaro rooms are reversed so you will get a full buffed Izaro more traps in the 1st Izaro room(Rest in pepperonis) and have to take half life of him , if you continue the Lab next phases will be 1/4 life each and rooms are reversed so you get a "less buffed" Izaro in the end . You dont want to do full Lab for points you have the coice to do so but you get full buff Izaro is your choice.
-Reward system for peeps that reach end of the Uber Lab should be the same as now with some tweeks like a chest that could give essence like orb enchants(random nº) so you still have "normal" enchants but you could get essence like orbs that transform a normal item in a rare with that enchant as suffix but other affixs are random like in a essence use.
And thats it! Sorry for bad english and thank you for Not Reading.
Like the other 44 pages said before...
Please, give us the chance to make an easier Lab to get only the ascendancy points and let expertise people to run actual versions to get keys, rewards and enchants.
As a semi-casual player, I ever desing my own builds thinking in 2 ascendancy points, max 4.
This limits my character, I know, but the idea to be killed on Izaro at high level and rerun AGAIN all lab... pffff...
But I would like to say something more:
Why if I wish the ascencancy-passive of Fortitude (100% time with Fortify buff) I should be ONLY a duelist?
I play first time PoE because "you can do your char as you wish, fully customization".
And this customization is not true yet.
I can do with passives a character as I wish... making it less efective if I change the "natural" char playstyle, but game gives me this freedom.
But with ascendancy can't have this option.
My suggestion (i know a lot of people will dislike me), is to let players to get access to other classes ascencancy trees with 2 ascendancy points.
For example:
I play with a witch, get 2 ascendancy points.
I can get 2 ascendancy passives from my tree OR unlock the access to another ascendancy class tree
Imagine I unlock the duelist-champion tree.
Will have it unlocked, but 0 ascendancy points free (unlock another class tree costs 2 points9
After completing the second lab, will have 2 points to spend only on the champion tree
Players that plays with duelist, will have 8 points to spend at end of uber-lab, but who unlocked the other class tree, only have 6 points, making they less efective but full customized :)
ps: I really-really-really hate duelist character, I can't play with it, i hate it, but their 100%-full-time-fortify ascendancy point... i wish it a lot... but I hate duelist.
Disappointing to hear. Repeating the lab 4 times is incredibly boring when you've already played 30+ characters considering it's forced content. This is a bad decision.
Well, I am totally disappointed at how those the changes in Labyrinth are taking place, because they dont change nothing at all:
1. POE game crashes in Labyrinth -> it is connected to multithreading bug and the only solution for me is to turn off multitreading option, but it causes very slow performance - there is nothin about fixing that.
2. Labyrinth is very hard for some builds and it slows progress of such characters especially in standalone version
3. It shouldn't be obligatory and connected to ascendancy points
I've been playing on and off since closed beta and to me, labs is the only time I feel GGG has made a huge mistake.
Much of my excitement for 3.0 came from the supposed changes to labs, but this is far from what I had hoped for.
I don't want to sound entitled but I can't see why we can't compromise on this so that people on both sides are happy.
I get that some people actually enjoy running labs, good for you.
There's no need to remove labs, make it optional, people who enjoy labs can still farm uber labs since its quite profitable.
Last league I made like 7 characters and progressed to maps, some of them I just ignored labs since I hate it so damn much.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
Last edited by Turtledove on May 18, 2017, 8:11:44 AM
How do you do this Turtledove? I am amazed you are still on top of things.
I'm a forum warrior, i was born to post, raised to defend my league. Now my post has been removed, chained and exiled by mods who Ban. Ban is my brother; i do not fear it. I see it in the eyes of men and beasts that i troll. It will take me to play the actual game when i am ready and i am not ready.
