[2.3] "Blender Rebirth" : Dual Wielding Axe / Sword Lacerate

I found Outmatch and Outlast to be overkill on trash and worthless on bosses unless they have trash to proc. This was playing cleave Gladiator during the last league. The tree should translate to lacerate just fine and that is what I am playing this league.

Just food for thought. Play your preferred way.

Hey 13isLucky,

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13isLucky wrote:

I found Outmatch and Outlast to be overkill on trash and worthless on bosses unless they have trash to proc. This was playing cleave Gladiator during the last league. The tree should translate to lacerate just fine and that is what I am playing this league.

Just food for thought. Play your preferred way.

Thanks for this feedback on Gladiator. Since I never played this Ascendancy, I had little to no knowledge about it so I went the way with the best potential. But if you say so, I will check with my character when I have the time for :p
But always good to have an idea before testing it ^^

Just posting again because i got my 5L lightning coil now, getting an abyssus will take some time i guess, didnt know they are in the 1+Ex price lol. normally they are 1 chaos. rip.

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Kormir wrote:

As far as I know, Champion is, with Juggernaut the Class which offers the highest defensive potential. However, as I said one the Gladiator Tree :

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With the addition of 2 more Ascendancy points, the Gladiator have now access to the full Block area, the Charges Generation and the Exploding Bleed, which result in something quite Defensive with nice clear speed bonus.

The goal of the Gladiator setup is to get as much damage as possible without lacking on the defensive side. I never wanted to make it either a full offense or full defense setup...

Saying "results in something quite defensive" isn't the same as saying "I'm going to avoid any alternative options for more damage". It also has nothing to do with the fact that you listed Champion as the guides default for a tankier version, which is why I said, if you want to play more defensively - go champion. I don't know how you got "Champion is the only defensive option" out of that.

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Once again, you appears to me as someone who didn't went through the whole guide : http://puu.sh/piHbG/4dc0f36b5f.png (from my Google Doc, and didn't just changed it : http://puu.sh/piHdQ/731e6432ca.png (french for "Last modification 7 days ago))
So, that's gone, now you say that the Block Chance will be unreliable. With the Ascendancy Tree and the Rumi's, you end up (when you take a hit) at about 58% Block Chance. Less than 20% away from max block while not using a shield or any other block item. On top of that, as I said in previous reply, I haven't fully tested both build so things may change, new items may be used so....

You're right, I didn't go to your google guide link, I read through the information presented here; but I'm going to stand by the fact that you don't even mention Rumi's or anything about Block in your main guide. Call it my failure for not going to your second, offsite, guide, but I'd say it's also your failure for ignoring that giant "gear" section on the front page. What are people more likely to look at? The written guide here or going off-site?

I'd also not call 20% away from max block as "near cap", when you're only 75% of the way there.

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Archimtiros wrote:

Lastly, you did not state in your guide that it was meant to have a defensive theme or that it wasn't meant to be purely offensive, outside of your secondary/HC-setup using Champion, which would imply that the Gladiator subclass was meant to be the offensive one; so if that was your goal, you failed to convey it. In fact, you mention an offensive setup multiple times specifically WRT Gladiator. Regardless, that doesn't address the point I brought up: Because you're not actively stacking Block, you're gaining little out of Versatile Combat, whereas you would be gaining a lot out of Blood in the Eyes. While it may not be a purely defensive choice, it's still a directly comparable one as they are mutually exclusive, and in that light, Blood in the Eyes wins hands down.

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So I didn't stated my mind of a hybrid Offense / Defense setup ? Are you sure of that ? Because that one sentence proves that you're 100% wrong.
And once again, I answered multiple times since release that things will may changes once every test I have to do are completed, which is, for now, not the case.

I'll repeat myself then, saying "we get an extra 2 points to make it more defensive" isn't the same thing as saying "I'm going to ignore any other option". That's a poor way of making your case, when my point was to present a different option.

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Raising a valid point ? Just now, your post critize me about things that are in my Guide and which, it seems, you never seen of. I'm all but being a dick, I just answer as I feel I need to do to someone who speaks about things without knowing everything about it.
In this answer, I used 2-3 quote of things that are in my guide since the beginning and which you said that weren't mentioned. So every single of your points are seens as non-constructive to me, so I don't see why I'd accept your comment.

I didn't criticize your guide. I didn't say it was stupid, or poorly made; the comment I did make only offered an alternative option to someone already considering one, and it wasn't even directed at you.

I only pointed out that the build didn't gain much out of one choice, and so could easily go another route that offered more synergistic benefits, and pointed out that there was a more defensive setup linked in the guide for players who wanted to prioritize defense.

You jumped out of the woodwork and started defending yourself as if I'd started a slander campaign against you, stating how the "comment doesn't matter" "this makes me laugh" "that's not the only way to play", when I in fact never asserted that there was only one choice.

Fact: Your main guide has a gear section and doesn't mention Rumi's, or stacking Block chance at all to begin with. One mention in an offsite link doesn't convince me that this build was made with using Rumi's or block in mind.

Fact: Your main guide doesn't say "this build only cares about defense". While it says "we can get more defensive options", that doesn't mean it's the sole focus, nor does it mean that any other options are completely inviable, which was the point I raised in my comment.

Fact: You go out of the way to mention Champion as the defensive setup, which implies that Gladiator is a more offensive one, which is not to say that Gladiator can't prioritize defense as well.

Fact: Suggestions aren't criticisms. They are simply alternative points of view and/or options.

[Removed by Support]

Only level 24 so far and I am finding this insanely mana intensive using lacerate. Have to chug mana constantly. :(

Hey chronicbint,

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chronicbint wrote:

Only level 24 so far and I am finding this insanely mana intensive using lacerate. Have to chug mana constantly. :(

Well, that's one of the issue of this build. You'll need a mana pot until you get the mana leech nodes which will be enough to the cost. You can rush early the leech but it isn't worth since you don't dean enough damage to regen'

For Archimtiros, I'll conclude the debate since it seems you can't speak properly as the edit of your post shows (haven't seen the message before sooo)

Your first fact, well you have a point however, I've said plenty of times that the guide idn't fully done yet.
The fact that many people already spoke about other Ascendancy use and that it says it isn't a full offensive idea show that I don't want more damage and as someone said 2-3 messages ago,, it'll be overkill.
The Gladiator setup is more offensive,, but I never said that it's a glass cannon setup so..
When you point up fact that are mentionned it's more criticisms than suggestion, on top of that even more when these suggestions already have been said

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Kormir wrote:

For Archimtiros, I'll conclude the debate since it seems you can't speak properly as the edit of your post shows (haven't seen the message before sooo)

Your first fact, well you have a point however, I've said plenty of times that the guide idn't fully done yet.
The fact that many people already spoke about other Ascendancy use and that it says it isn't a full offensive idea show that I don't want more damage and as someone said 2-3 messages ago,, it'll be overkill.
The Gladiator setup is more offensive,, but I never said that it's a glass cannon setup so..
When you point up fact that are mentionned it's more criticisms than suggestion, on top of that even more when these suggestions already have been said

That's ok, I just reiterated an earlier statement. I'm sure you can figure it out for yourself.

Just because you don't want more damage, or think that it's overkill, doesn't mean it's not useful or viable. Ignoring the fact that killing things faster or more effectively does have a defensive benefit, it's a wholly personal decision that everyone makes for themselves.

My post was responding to another poster who was already considering changing Ascendancy nodes to use Blood in the Eyes; I offered advice - which is not the same as criticism - had I been suggesting changing your guide, stating that the path laid out in your guide was inferior, or even aiming my comment at you in general that might be a different story, but I was not and did not, I merely offered a suggestion. I'd also point out that I did search through the comments before making my post, and no-one had made mention of dropping Versatile Combat up until that point; you had one response to the same post I responded to, which was largely concerning a different node altogether, therefore I presented an alternative.

Hey once again Archimtiros,

A fact that a friend pointed out made me laugh a bit inside.
You're speaking about things being useful or viable, mostly for the end game then, but you have no experience with it since you only really played Cyclone with a Duelist.

On top of that :

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13isLucky wrote:

I found Outmatch and Outlast to be overkill on trash and worthless on bosses unless they have trash to proc.

Even if it's only one advice on my guide, it shows the fact that it isn't as worth as you may think. And on top of that you say "t's a wholly personal decision that everyone makes for themselves", but the guide is about my point of view, and on top of that, one of the first sentence of my guide is "In this guide I'll give as much informations and details as I can in order to let you use my build as you please or to create a variation on your own."
I am not here to reference every single possibility but to give the big idea behind the build I want to use.

After that, you say that your first post was just an answer. Let me point one specific point of your answer "If you want to be defensive, play Champion instead." Since the goal of my build is to get Defense in both setup, from the start your idea was wrong so I don't understand why you try to make yourself good in there.

You have a point on the fact that it was just an answer to someone asking for a different path. However, your second post is where you went full wrong. I stated MY mind on MY guide which resume MY idea on which I said that everyone can make his own variation, and then you started to say that everything behind the Gladiator setup was wrong... Read back what you said in previous post and come again after, because there you're just exposing yourself as someone who want to change the very base of my guide which state my point of view on the skill. If you want to someone else, good, it was meant for it, but don't come into my guide in order to say that it'll be better that way because more damage or maybe someone else would like it. Many people know how to do their own build, as myself, I just search an idea and modify it to fit my play style. So if you have another idea, go make a guide.

If everyone came in my Guide to make his own full guide, there will be no point. You are a grown up, you may ask question, but don't come here to say that everything can be different, which is, totally obvious due to how I explained my guide.

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Kormir wrote:

Hey once again Archimtiros,

A fact that a friend pointed out made me laugh a bit inside.
You're speaking about things being useful or viable, mostly for the end game then, but you have no experience with it since you only really played Cyclone with a Duelist.

I played a very similar (cleave) build last league, but as I do not play on standard, I have a tenancy to delete or otherwise let languish in squalor characters as leagues end to free up names and character slots. Now you don't have to believe this, but I'll remind you that attacking someone's character rather than the factual basis of their argument is an obvious logical fallacy, defined as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem.

To whit, you don't need to have current experience with something to be able to understand how they work - to give an humorous example, you don't need to eat shit to understand that it wouldn't taste very good. It's possible to understand interactions without firsthand experience, and along the same line of reasoning, I'd also point out that at the time of writing the guide, you had not played the spec either, as the League had not even released. If your logic held through, that would imply that you had no basis of understanding either, which we both know isn't true for a well reasoned individual.

But hey, thanks for being condescending! Again, I'm not sure if you can tell, but you're the one being antagonistic here...

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Even if it's only one advice on my guide, it shows the fact that it isn't as worth as you may think. And on top of that you say "t's a wholly personal decision that everyone makes for themselves", but the guide is about my point of view, and on top of that, one of the first sentence of my guide is "In this guide I'll give as much informations and details as I can in order to let you use my build as you please or to create a variation on your own."
I am not here to reference every single possibility but to give the big idea behind the build I want to use.

It may be your guide, but thinking only your point of view matters is just plain egotistical - if you don't want comments don't ask people to do so (as referenced by your post asking for comments at the bottom of the first page); but even more importantly, you didn't offer a point of view in response to my suggestion. You didn't say "I don't agree because X, Y, Z", you launched into an attack about how that wasn't the point of this guide, when in actuality, it has very little impact on the build as a whole - it isn't as though suggesting to use a completely different build path, set of skill gems and links, or the like. I'd also point out that you have said multiple times that the guide wasn't complete, as evidenced by the whole Rumi's debacle.

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After that, you say that your first post was just an answer. Let me point one specific point of your answer "If you want to be defensive, play Champion instead." Since the goal of my build is to get Defense in both setup, from the start your idea was wrong so I don't understand why you try to make yourself good in there.

Perhaps I should have said "more defensive" to be more ambiguous, but I was using your own guides justification of Champion as the better defensive setup. Regardless, changing one Ascendancy node does not make the build completely un-defensive, nor a "glass cannon" as you suggested above. The node is hardly necessary for good effect, or even build defining, as something like Fortify is for Champion.

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You have a point on the fact that it was just an answer to someone asking for a different path. However, your second post is where you went full wrong. I stated MY mind on MY guide which resume MY idea on which I said that everyone can make his own variation, and then you started to say that everything behind the Gladiator setup was wrong... Read back what you said in previous post and come again after, because there you're just exposing yourself as someone who want to change the very base of my guide which state my point of view on the skill. If you want to someone else, good, it was meant for it, but don't come into my guide in order to say that it'll be better that way because more damage or maybe someone else would like it. Many people know how to do their own build, as myself, I just search an idea and modify it to fit my play style. So if you have another idea, go make a guide.

If everyone came in my Guide to make his own full guide, there will be no point. You are a grown up, you may ask question, but don't come here to say that everything can be different, which is, totally obvious due to how I explained my guide.

Again, I'm going to point out that you didn't state an opinion, you didn't even offer a reason as to why what I said was wrong, you simply attacked my character for daring to offer a different opinion.

I didn't change your guide, I suggested one alternative to one Ascendancy bonus that is hardly build defining. All you've done here is make a mountain out of a molehill.

Thanks for the build. I think I fell in love.

I had some mana problems too, it can be solved easy by picking Mana Leech + Life & Mana Leech ASAP. Only 3 points for 0.8% it's perfect. It let you run more utility flasks, for example Granite Flask+Stibnite Flask+Jade Flask. With fortify it keep you alive at any boss.

For Fortify I can recommend Vigilant Strike, before you get your Cruel Ascendancy. If you have tabula, add Fortify gem to main skill. Lack of Intellect won't let you use Increased Area of Effect early and this gem will improve your DPS. I had about ~6.5k at lvl 60 with tabula.

Only thing I dislike here it Lacerate skill itself, rather it's mechanics with Multistrke support. For example when you fight Izaro, first two swings attack Izaro and other 4 will attack random enimes in skill range. I don't know how to prevent it. I think it might be problem on map bosses with minions.