Remove 6 link divination cards

I think part of the issue with this is that 6 links gem wise are more valuable now because of how many better options people have in support gem slots. So with that being the chase I can see why having 6 links being more common is a good thing. Back in the day if all you could add to your links was something like added cold gem there wasn't a huge reason to feel bad about not having a 6 link. I personally think having links being gated behind currency is generally a bad idea in terms of how new players are going to see it. Though I'm more ok with getting unique items linked being difficult.

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Mannoth wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Shouldnt it be achievable for anyone? No, getting to maps in a day or 2 isnt achievable by anyone, anyone capable of that is capable of getting a 6 link within a week or so.

This is such bullshit and you know it.
It takes me ~7 hours to reach merciless dried lake and around ~10 before I start mapping if i go all tryhard without afking.
Gathering 1500 fuses? Yeah good fucking luck with that in a temp league unless you trade like a madman. I will rather play the game than economy simulator 2016.

Because leveling fast is based on skill and getting a 6L is based on luck or your trade skills, or dumb luck, not skill.

Give harder content and nerf the damage output of skills but cutting down 6L availability on rare items is beyond dumb imo. Gating a game selling point behind a RNG wall on the excuse that it should be hard and luxury when it has no corelation to game difficulty (you said it yourself the game content can be done with a 5L) is not really a good proposition.

If you want a harder game then make harder content, do not gate core mechanics behind RNG walls.

6L is not core mechanics being gated mate, Im not buying into this who build enabling stuff advertised I could have a 6L so I want one without effort etc etc.

Its a loot game, the end bis stuff is nearly impossible to get, thats what a loot game is. You want a skill game with equal item opportunity for showing up go play cs:go or unreal tournament. In a loot game the best gear is ridiculous and way beyond what you need, because it is not really intended that most people will get it. I dont have bis gear, nor should I. This is a principal of ARPGS, if you dont get this, dont believe in it, then theres no point us discussing anything really.




You dont need 1500 fusing to make a 6L, Ive never had an item require 1500 fusing by hand. 1500 fusing is over 15 exalts early league, a 6L will cost you about 10 in trade and about 10 by hand. I could make 1500 fusing in a week if I really wanted to regardless. So could you, if you wanted to.

A 6 link in a week is ridiculous anyway, Im only even talking like thats acceptable because Im taking into account the person getting it has played as much in that week as most people do in a month.

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PaperRat wrote:

These cards just transition 6-links from rare prize for a very dedicated player, to a rare prize for a moderately dedicated player.

80 chaos is not a rare prize for a moderately dedicated player. Its a trivial amount, they transition them from something that requires an intense amount of effort to something that is throw away trivial.

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Mannoth wrote:

Your point is that you can bypass RNG by trading and that it should be the only way of doing so. Excuse me for wanting to play the game rather than play economy simulator 2016 in order to obtain a 6L item in a temporary league.

A portion of the players don't want to trade at all, ruining the game for them isn't what I would call a good move (if you noticed the solo self found vote was quite high on the 2W event poll).

I mention 2 elements, you only see one, nice.
The forum posters are not a significant enough portion of the player base at all, especially about this.
There are good reasons why trading is needed ( not that I will be discussing about this here, there are Chris' interviews on youtube if you are curious ).
And obviously not, I don't want everybody to play a trade simulator ( I don't trade much btw, just a bit ), typical hater argument there.
There is no need because there is no need for a 6L as said numerous times on this thread.

melees striclty inferior ?
/lol
Like seriously man
Quick example : cycloners.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

I get it, you want everything to be easier because the game has trained you to want want want want want want, yeah, we all want, but some of us are perceptive enough to see that getting everything we want right now is not a long term plan for a healthy game.

^

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PaperRat wrote:

So the fear of casuals swimming in 6-links is unfounded, IMO.

Not when the market gets somewhat flooded.
The first non Tabula chest 6L on Perandus ( from poe.trade ) costs 35 chaos.
This kind of balance is extremely hard to foresee I believe, and GGG probably would not want to change that in the middle of a league where the flooded already started ( I mean, better wait for the end to see the extent of it ).
So I hope that GGG will lower the drop rates of those cards, having 5L white armor cost at least let's say ~5+ex at the end of a league would be a better place already, and I still think it's pretty low.

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CalamityAOE wrote:

I think part of the issue with this is that 6 links gem wise are more valuable now because of how many better options people have in support gem slots

That's a good point, but allowing more people to use a 6L also allows people to make less choices :
Where they needed to choose between 2 gems for a 5L, now they can just get both if they get a 6L.

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Mannoth wrote:

when it has no corelation to game difficulty (you said it yourself the game content can be done with a 5L)

"The game can be beaten with 5L" <=> "5L and 6L do not change anything regarding difficulty" to you ?
.....
Of course it changes something, 6L is obviously more powerful, and it can be a significant power up
What about if GGG were to give a 6L on killing Merciless Piety ?
After all, they reached maped, they should be allowed to use the full "selling point" ( since you seem to think so bad that this game is about have a 6L item apparently ) of the game, right ?
If they added an extremely rare corruption mod on chest that would add another socket and link it ( if the chest was already 6L ), would you start thinking that this is a core feature of the game because it is possible ?

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

80 chaos is not a rare prize for a moderately dedicated player. Its a trivial amount, they transition them from something that requires an intense amount of effort to something that is throw away trivial.

See, like I said, the argument is how much a "significant amount" is. I disagree that 80 chaos is trivial.

You can at least see, that you are arguing from a perspective of highly experienced, highly dedicated player, who's also in a guild, and that maybe not everyone plays the game the way you do. People who play, say a quarter of your time, don't make currency at a quarter rate. It's just not how it works.

Simple example: You get to farming maps faster, thus profit from trading more. While their setup time not only takes longer, but also somewhat depends on buying items from you at a premium rate, since it's the beginning of the league. Essentially extra time you put in translates to extra currency, that comes from people who put in less time.

Let's say you got to maps in 2 days and other person got to maps in eight. Even if by the end of the month this other person farms as much as you have by the end of first week, he will have trouble selling it at the same rates, since it's a month in already. It goes on and on like this.

And if we talking of only farming (no trading), then 80 chaos is a huge amount of time spent.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

You dont need 1500 fusing to make a 6L, Ive never had an item require 1500 fusing by hand.

Tell that to people who spent over 3k fuses without one. Just because you had good RNG doesn't mean everyone has. Banking on luck to get a 6L on your item isn't a sound tactic.

And statistics mean nothing when looked at individual cases, so you can't just hope you hit the average situation of linking within 900 fuses.

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I could make 1500 fusing in a week if I really wanted to regardless. So could you, if you wanted to.

Well that is a rather vague statement, sure I could make 1500 fusings in a week if I played 10 hours a day or flipped currency.
But gathering them just by playing the game without excess trading? Highly doubtful.

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80 chaos is not a rare prize for a moderately dedicated player. Its a trivial amount, they transition them from something that requires an intense amount of effort to something that is throw away trivial.

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Its a loot game, the end bis stuff is nearly impossible to get, thats what a loot game is.

They transition to a white 6L item, which then requires extensive crafting to be made into a good piece of gear.

A white 6L isn't end bis stuff. A properly rolled 6L chest is close to it, a 6L Shavronne/Belly/Lioneye Vision are examples of end game BiS.
A random 6L rare chest with life+2 resist isn't endgame...

And when endgame crafting of said 6L is again a throw of the dice (chaos orbs in 90% of the cases) you can have devastatingly bad results (a friend used like 500~ chaos orbs on a hubris this league without hitting even 400 es).

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I get it, you want everything to be easier because the game has trained you to want want want want want want, yeah, we all want, but some of us are perceptive enough to see that getting everything we want right now is not a long term plan for a healthy game.

Speak for yourself. I advocate game difficulty all the way, but 6L starvation isn't the way. Endgame content which challenges people who do have 6L is a much better difficulty.
I do not want trivialization of endgame content, I want content which isn't trivialized even with near BiS gear and is mechanically hard and not numerically.

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I mention 2 elements, you only see one, nice.

What exactly was your 2nd element???

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melees striclty inferior ?
/lol
Like seriously man
Quick example : cycloners.

They do not even compare to bow builds, what the hell:
1. Get stopped by a pebble on the ground
2. Inferior AoE coverage compared to ranged
3. Melee means you trade hits and can't kite dangerous monsters
4. Melee is inherently in more danger than ranged in this game because of things like volatile blood, corpse explosions, etc.

So yes, melee is strictly inferior to ranged options because almost nothing in the game rewards you for being melee. Can melee do endgame content? Yes. Is it optimal in any way? No.

Lets look at this problem from the bottom side.

80c is a trivial amount? 3 ex is a trivial amount? I made 7 ex in the entire Perandus league.

1500 fusings can be farmed in one week? Lets calculate how long I need for 1500 fusings at my current farmspeed: 3 days of Elreon daily yield 60 jews (plus some alterations at the normal vendor) which can be traded to Vorici for 20 fusings. I need to use Vorici 75 times, thus I end up at 215 days for a guaranteed 6 link. Count in the days I wont play the game, I will get a six link in about 7 to 8 months.

Are 7 to 8 months of playing a game too less to deserve a gameplay aspect?

I feel the definition of "uber" atziri is gonna be a joke at this rate. So much power creep has been going into this game and making it easier. (Ascendencies, 6 links are the main culprits). So, not too happy to see these price drops so much, and this is coming from a player who hasn't owned a 6 link. It's cool to know that my characters really could get better, and there's room to grow.

Also, I don't think 6 link should be for everyone. To get the full, great experience Path of Exile is, a 6 link is NOT necessary for an average player. For example, i've never had a 6 link but have been able to do everything, except uber or the last couple maps. This is nice, I have something to strive for!

Having that far-off thing there is great for rewarding the hardcore players.

The way I see it: making 6 links more accessible does not change average player's experiences, and take's away from the hardcore group.

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Mannoth wrote:

A random 6L rare chest with life+2 resist isn't endgame...

I think it is. You can smash yellow maps with a 4L rare chest with life + 2 resist. I dont know what ur definition of endgame is, i dont think it really matters, it doesnt amount to something that changes my mind on throw away 6 links being abundant.


Youre friend used about 7 exalts of chaos on a hubris and didnt manage to hit a 10+ exalt item? A very sad tale. You are aware how hard it is to roll a 400+ es hubris vs, well, any rare chest in the game? A hat is no chest or shield. Regardless, the tale has not swayed me Im afraid.

Bottom line is we disagree, and thats ok. I respect your opinion, I dont share it, but there is no right or wrong here, just how we feel. I dont want to push why I disagree with you because i inherently dont like disagreement and confrontation in all honesty, might sound strange coming from someone as generally sort of twatish and argumentative as me but its true. I do honestly respect everyones right to their opinion, Im not just saying that, and I think to continue to disagree with each other would just entrench us both further.

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PaperRat wrote:

You can at least see, that you are arguing from a perspective of highly experienced, highly dedicated player, who's also in a guild, and that maybe not everyone plays the game the way you do. People who play, say a quarter of your time, don't make currency at a quarter rate. It's just not how it works.

Its true that I am a somewhat wealthy player, not rly by standards terms honestly but I have more than most we can maybe say. Im in a fairly gg guild and we have our fun, for sure.

but I am also someone whos gone as far as writing guides on how run solo, self found, hardcore melee builds into maps. Ive played many characters solo self found in hardcore. I know what it is to start with nothing and have no outside help in brutal conditions like beyond.

I understand what its like for new players. I remember being a new player, and not having all the things, and being glad I didnt have all the things because only a bullshit child pandering game with no future would give a noob like me all the things.

and then I learnt how to play, we all lived happily ever after and jack had a wonderful feeling of satisfaction having managed something that actually took some real effort unlike the shallow little medal for everyone handouts of blizzard style games.

You know its true, in your heart, beneath that voice that so wants the things where you get all the stuffs to come true, theres another little voice that knows spoiling the children does not make for productive, happy, well adjusted adults. We all have that little Veruca Salt on our shoulder, I want it now now now NOW NOW!!!! But we have to keep an eye on a sustainable future for the game, we have to make sure 3 years and 10k hours play time from now that noob you just gave a 6 link too still has a reason to play the game, still has tons of gear to chase.

If you rob players of progression time, you rob them of the game, you take away the time the game has to offer them, the gradients it presents the player to climb and feel high on top of. What I see more than anything is experienced players telling me new players need 6 links and thats why its great theyre trivial to get now. I kind of feel like you guys want the 6 links, not these solo self found noobs that get wheeled out like some sort of pity parade.

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Vias_Myton wrote:

Lets look at this problem from the bottom side.

80c is a trivial amount? 3 ex is a trivial amount? I made 7 ex in the entire Perandus league.

1500 fusings can be farmed in one week? Lets calculate how long I need for 1500 fusings at my current farmspeed: 3 days of Elreon daily yield 60 jews (plus some alterations at the normal vendor) which can be traded to Vorici for 20 fusings. I need to use Vorici 75 times, thus I end up at 215 days for a guaranteed 6 link. Count in the days I wont play the game, I will get a six link in about 7 to 8 months.

Are 7 to 8 months of playing a game too less to deserve a gameplay aspect?

well it depends, are we talking 7 or 8 months farming with your 6 link belly of the beast character in perandus or your 6L carcass jack character in standard?

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Mannoth wrote:

[...]

You can reread my other post then, when a sentence is structured like **** A and/or B *****, that makes 2 elements.

About the melees vs casters offtopic, cyclone build itself is ruining all of your points.
The "recent" changes about block nerfed melees a little bit ( along with the BoR block nerf ), reaching cap is much more difficult, but I don't see melees being in a bad spot at all right now, still more survivability and more dps.
Perma fortify gave a huge boost for the range duelists tho, I give you that, but that's it basically.

You are you to say decide what kind of difficulty is good and what kind isn't ?
The numeric will always be superior to the mechanics because this is a loot game, that's what it is !
You want harder mechanics ? You can go laby, wait for the laby maps, you will have your harder mechanics ( it seems that it received mitigated reactions from the player base ).
( Just in case, nobody said that good mechanics were not good for the game, don't get me wrong ).

You want to have a full setup early on ( before 85+ ), we get it.
What we want is to have some room for gear progression left, and still have that big spike of satisfaction if a 6L comes on the way, unexpected.
And this has been GGG's way of doing from the start, basically.