SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Nishrek wrote:

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raics wrote:

So, what did the first ascendants die to then? There was no Izaro inside at the time. You can't have a labyrinth with only a boss fight that didn't even exist. I think they messed up a bit in the beta on that account, though I suppose it might have been some other boss and everyone had to do all four segments so they had to deal with traps at some point.

As you said yourself. The fact that we are still running lab three times makes a mess from the lore/story. They will have to straighten this out. So they will change some lore parts anyway, some may be heavily altered.

BTW Below is a panacea for inconsistent lore problems. It will solve all lore problems. 100% guaranteed or you will get your money back!
It is even used by GGG!

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity

BTW
Not being negatively vocal about the lab =/= liking the lab
Running the lab for AC =/= liking the lab

Also I would like to know whats statistics would show that majority of people like the lab

This. Curious were fruz gets his ''They have infinitely more information than you do, and that's a fact.
And they have said, several times, that you are a vocal minority.''

The fact is Chris mentioned that there were a significant amount of complaints on lab which prompted them to change it and get more feedback. Right now it just seems as the strawman argument of the ''50 folks that love lab'' and acting as if they are a majority.

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andreicde wrote:

The fact is Chris mentioned that there were a significant amount of complaints on lab which prompted them to change it and get more feedback.

I don't think anyone can deny there is indeed a fair bit of complaints floating out there. I suppose we can see how much by the extent of changes, it's enough to start tweaking the content incrementally, which was expected. It just wouldn't cut it for a removal, AP decoupling or a significant rework, which is what the thread was going for and what the 'not enough complaints' comments were about.

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raics wrote:

I assume they have a competent data analyst on board that can make some sense out of it all, can't run an online game without one.

Sure. They have data analysis department. But you are talking about very detailed analysis, with many variables. Many things in PoE require fine tuning and balance.
But basic things like Lab/AP do not require so sophisticated analysis.
Because they can't gather data like:
* How many people have fun with lab
* How many people want to change (or not) lab

They may gather data like how many people run the lab, how many do it more than once, how many are carried, how many are disconnected after killing Izaro etc.
But they have no way to check players' opinions about the content

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Nishrek wrote:

But they have no way to check players' opinions about the content

Well, they could do it if needed, but as I said it's much faster and cheaper to just do an estimate using the standard algorithms based on numbers they do have.

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Nishrek wrote:

Also I would like to know whats statistics would show that majority of people like the lab

The best way I can think of to try to calculate that statistic would be take the percentage of people posting in the forums and divide that into the number of players in the list. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 910 posters in support We don't know the percent players that have posted in the forums over the past 16 months but presumably GGG does so, for example, say 0.5% of the player base. 914/0.5% = 182,000 players. This would be an estimate of bottom line number because the 914 seems to be growing steadily and it appears that a much larger number of new names pop up when the thread is outside the Feedback and Suggestions section of the forum. Meaning that it appears many people seem to maybe just post in General Discussions or other sub-areas of the PoE forums or just never bothered to voice their opinion. (Heck, you may even be a fairly recent addition to the list, I don't really remember. :-) )

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Turtledove wrote:

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Nishrek wrote:

Also I would like to know whats statistics would show that majority of people like the lab

The best way I can think of to try to calculate that statistic would be take the percentage of people posting in the forums...

I think the currently best way is to judge it by GGG's reaction: They are improving the lab in the beta, making it a whole lot less annoying at least for the first few iterations, which contain the mandatory AP. So I guess those people aren't a tiny minority after all...

Sadly all GGG is trying to do is fix a mechanic that can't really be fixed; even with the normal and cruel lab changes in 3.0 (and yes it's faster), but bosses now have more health (a lot more), and Uber Izuro will only be doable by a fraction of the players (my guess is 1% or less).

Same as before.

So they're fixing something that ain't really "broken" as much as it is a bad mechanic; they're just making it less annoying while ignoring the core fact that the lab as a whole is just a rotten design/mechanic/requirement, and it'll always piss players off until it's no longer "required" for character progression/growth.

With 3.0, players may be crawling through glass in 1/2 the time, the player is still forced to crawl through glass.

Seems fairly obvious at this point that they were not happy with the lab, as they have changed it a lot more then I thought they were going to. For better and honestly for worse in some cases. Unless the lab was reworked (which I don't think they are going to do) then it probably won't ever appeal to me. It's too easy, and they made it even more of a joke.

Looks like traps are barely even in normal and cruel (Or w/e you want to call them now). Why bother having trials to prepare you for something that doesn't even make an appearance. Izaro was the only fun part for me because he was challenging in some cases, but always fair.. and it feels like they just keep nerfing him.

Looks like they are going to improve the side areas and alternate chests but will this compete with treasure key runs, we'll have to see on that.

For some reason I can't shake the concept of having a lab where there are many smaller rooms with trap/monsters in them. Maybe its because I have to run through it every character multiple times and just feel like there is so much missed opportunity. Trap gauntlets are like puzzles to me, once I know the answer to the puzzle.. its no longer satisfying since I am just going through the motion.

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e1337donkey wrote:

Seems fairly obvious at this point that they were not happy with the lab, as they have changed it a lot more then I thought they were going to. For better and honestly for worse in some cases. Unless the lab was reworked (which I don't think they are going to do) then it probably won't ever appeal to me. It's too easy, and they made it even more of a joke.

Looks like traps are barely even in normal and cruel (Or w/e you want to call them now). Why bother having trials to prepare you for something that doesn't even make an appearance. Izaro was the only fun part for me because he was challenging in some cases, but always fair.. and it feels like they just keep nerfing him.

Looks like they are going to improve the side areas and alternate chests but will this compete with treasure key runs, we'll have to see on that.

For some reason I can't shake the concept of having a lab where there are many smaller rooms with trap/monsters in them. Maybe its because I have to run through it every character multiple times and just feel like there is so much missed opportunity. Trap gauntlets are like puzzles to me, once I know the answer to the puzzle.. its no longer satisfying since I am just going through the motion.

Ok. Now that they have done this, with which i disagree but whatever...
What would you guys say about putting the merciless ascendancy points after merciless malachai just to test the waters for one league? See what players do? Is merc malachai harder\ easier than merc izaro and lab? Will most players buy malachai kills?

Doing experiments is fun!

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andreicde wrote:

This. Curious were fruz gets his ''They have infinitely more information than you do, and that's a fact.
And they have said, several times, that you are a vocal minority.''

The fact is Chris mentioned that there were a significant amount of complaints on lab which prompted them to change it and get more feedback. Right now it just seems as the strawman argument of the ''50 folks that love lab'' and acting as if they are a majority.

significant compared to what ?
People have been throwing tantrums and tantrums about how they wanted their AC outside of the lab for more than a year, yet nothing has change regarding this, doesn't that give you even a tiny clue ?

GGG does not care if the majority of the players does not love the lab, there isn't a majority of the playerbase that loves Malachai I bet, or Dominus, or Piety, it does not matter.

They know what they are doing, you are just being absolutely not pragmatic and not trying to see what's actually what.

But go on, keep being delusional with the other haters here, it won't change the facts.

One more time, they have infinitely more data than you, from which they can extrapolate about the popularity of the lab.

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Turtledove wrote:

The best way I can think of to try to calculate that statistic would be take the percentage of people posting in the forums [...]

Captain obvious here, but the confirmation bias seems to be huge with you.
The forum's users will never, ever be a good approximation of the whole playerbase, as it has been said and explained many many times.

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SisterBlister wrote:

I think the currently best way is to judge it by GGG's reaction: They are improving the lab in the beta, making it a whole lot less annoying at least for the first few iterations, which contain the mandatory AP. So I guess those people aren't a tiny minority after all...

The changes don't answer any of what has been thrown in the OP, and they are basically adapting the lab to the 3.0.0, mainly.
You guys could ( and likely are ) very well be a tiny minority still, it changes nothing regarding that.
If GGG can do two birds one stone, improve the lab and make it fit more to 3.0.0, and remove a lot of the flood from the "QQ whaaa lab whaaaaa give me my ascendancy points QQ whaaa" threads and posts, why should they not ?