SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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raics wrote:

Don't you also have 'mead is the cure for all ills'? :)

Naah, but never underestimate good beer :)

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raics wrote:

I'd say that the mirror thing these days is the key to becoming introverted and, in time, depressed. But then again, I'm no expert on the subject so take it with a grain of salt.

Maybe people use the mirror too much, if I and a number of like-minded people don't like the lab it has to be vastly disliked, right? But that's the thing I said about the player mentality, we know the average forum fly, but what's the average PoE player like? Probably plays less and is less invested in the game, likely knows less about the game or its development cycles and is less interested in it. That's something we can assume, but what's his reaction to the lab? Hell if I know, it might be similar and it might not, GGG probably knows more about it than we do, they have some stats at least and we don't have anything.

Well, a "saying" is never to be taken too seriously. But while I will never use the word "majority", I know that the lab is "vastly disliked" from my guild experience. I'm now an officer in a guild with about 150 members, and have previously been a member of 4-500+ guilds. I will never take the forum as a baseline.

Yes, they DO have some stat. And they ARE changing it, though the changes might be minor.

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Phrazz wrote:

Naah, but never underestimate good beer :)

Strange, everybody has that one, just sub 'mead' for beer, wine, whiskey, vodka, rakia, sake...

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Phrazz wrote:

Well, a "saying" is never to be taken too seriously. But while I will never use the word "majority", I know that the lab is "vastly disliked" from my guild experience. I'm now an officer in a guild with about 150 members, and have previously been a member of 4-500+ guilds. I will never take the forum as a baseline.

Yes, they DO have some stat. And they ARE changing it, though the changes might be minor.

What I was thinking is this, you know the usual forum reaction to meta shifts (polite term for nerfs)? Yeah, it's overwhelmingly negative, there are positive reactions of which a third or more are likely trolls. However, meta shifts are also considered beneficial to average player retention and return.

So, it might not even be about what the player thinks or says but what he does. Even if an an average player likes meta shifts no more than forum goers, it doesn't matter because his overall reaction to them is ultimately positive.

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raics wrote:

What I was thinking is this, you know the usual forum reaction to meta shifts (polite term for nerfs)? Yeah, it's overwhelmingly negative, there are positive reactions of which a third or more are likely trolls. However, meta shifts are also considered beneficial to average player retention and return.

So, it might not even be about what the player thinks or says but what he does. Even if an an average player likes meta shifts no more than forum goers, it doesn't matter because his overall reaction to them is ultimately positive.

You're not dividing players enough when you talk about the "average player". While the "average league player" might give an ultimately positive response to META shifts, the "average standard player" might not, and often quits (read: long break) based on severe META shifts. But then again, an "average" standard player might not be considered "beneficial", I don't know. A league player likes to adapt, a standard player might not.

While this might be an interesting debate, I fail to see the link to lab. Even though I dislike the lab, I CAN be a somewhat objective person in my brightest moments. And I fail to see - objectively - how the lab can be a positive addition to the game. It offers so god damn little in form of gameplay elements.

While the lab COULD have been implemented alongside in-game leaderboards, in-game events and an in-game overall view about drops, rewards and so on, it wasn't. It was thrown in there like a bump in the road. It offers almost nothing in form of gameplay - but it COULD have, for those that like racing it. But I seriously doubt that a lot of people are doing that these days. Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't looked at the leaderboards.

But I'm diverting, I'm sorry.

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Xavathos wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I do not get the point of arguing if shitty content is shitty because it's too mushy or smells bad or makes people nauseous.

At the end of the day no one can argue many hate it enough to quit rather than pay to avoid content that should not be required.

We can argue with trolls who feel "stupid" has 4 letters and no matter what evidence you show, they will still refute you and twist english to argue with you.

Their amp goes to 11 it has to be louder.

Then just quit! I just don't see the problem here. Not every dish in the world will be to your liking, trust me. There will be things that will just not be for you. That doesn't make it bad.

I don't smoke or drink personally, I think alcohol ruins the taste of most drinks and smoking makes me nauseous when I'm not even smoking myself.

Does that mean everyone in the world should just stop drinking and smoking? Every drink should have its alcohol removed because I don't like it? Hell no. Drink up, me hearties! I'll drive you home safely after.

Can't you see that by your standard with removing the Lab, you are doing exactly what I described above? It's not for everyone and nothing ever will be. Even chocolate isn't. Think about it.

This thread is to discuss how else the ascendancy points could be assigned or how the Lab could be different to appeal to a larger crowd. It's not being removed and chances are you'll still think it's boring after the change. Be ready for that. Be ready to realize that a game isn't made just for you and you'll have to roll with it sometimes.

1) I did quit
2) Your concept is flawed. If a small piece of a good game sucks so bad people quit over it , maybe it should be optional. It's like being forced to get that 3 in one icecream and being forced to eat the chocolate even though it makes you vomit.

All you want is the other 2 flavors.
By your logic its ok for buffets to make me eat the entire selection because you like them all, I do not.

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Fruz wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I do not get the point of [...]

I know, that has been clear (and not only to me I guess) for a long time
Don't hurt yourself.

Troll says what?

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Phrazz wrote:

You're not dividing players enough when you talk about the "average player". While the "average league player" might give an ultimately positive response to META shifts, the "average standard player" might not, and often quits (read: long break) based on severe META shifts. But then again, an "average" standard player might not be considered "beneficial", I don't know. A league player likes to adapt, a standard player might not.

Yeah, I know, their development has been focused pretty much exclusively on leagues for a long time now so I don't think perma players are a significant factor. I suppose it became clear enough this league when perma players lost access to league mods without a single comment from GGG. If it was needed for whatever reason - fine, but an explanation of some sort would be in order.

No idea about their reasoning about the lab, it's possible that their projected reaction from the playerbase to disconnecting ascendancy points from the lab would be unfavorable in some way. Maybe it's those smaller cycles I mentioned earlier but that would be just a part of it, not enough in itself.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I do not get the point of arguing if shitty content is shitty because it's too mushy or smells bad or makes people nauseous.

At the end of the day no one can argue many hate it enough to quit rather than pay to avoid content that should not be required.

We can argue with trolls who feel "stupid" has 4 letters and no matter what evidence you show, they will still refute you and twist english to argue with you.

Their amp goes to 11 it has to be louder.

Then just quit! I just don't see the problem here. Not every dish in the world will be to your liking, trust me. There will be things that will just not be for you. That doesn't make it bad.

I don't smoke or drink personally, I think alcohol ruins the taste of most drinks and smoking makes me nauseous when I'm not even smoking myself.

Does that mean everyone in the world should just stop drinking and smoking? Every drink should have its alcohol removed because I don't like it? Hell no. Drink up, me hearties! I'll drive you home safely after.

Can't you see that by your standard with removing the Lab, you are doing exactly what I described above? It's not for everyone and nothing ever will be. Even chocolate isn't. Think about it.

This thread is to discuss how else the ascendancy points could be assigned or how the Lab could be different to appeal to a larger crowd. It's not being removed and chances are you'll still think it's boring after the change. Be ready for that. Be ready to realize that a game isn't made just for you and you'll have to roll with it sometimes.

1) I did quit
2) Your concept is flawed. If a small piece of a good game sucks so bad people quit over it , maybe it should be optional. It's like being forced to get that 3 in one icecream and being forced to eat the chocolate even though it makes you vomit.

All you want is the other 2 flavors.
By your logic its ok for buffets to make me eat the entire selection because you like them all, I do not.

1) Good for you! But you're still here complaining, why?
2) IT IS OPTIONAL. You can choose to do it, or you can choose to not do it. How is this so hard for you to understand, man? You quit, so the idea of optional things should be second nature to you.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

2) Your concept is flawed. If a small piece of a good game sucks so bad people quit over it , maybe it should be optional. It's like being forced to get that 3 in one icecream and being forced to eat the chocolate even though it makes you vomit.

Maybe that's conceptually a bad example, what if lab is supposed to be something like that rite of adulthood where you have to wear a glove full of bullet ants? It's extremely unpleasant, to put it mildly. Nobody's technically forcing you to, sure, but you aren't considered a man until you do so you can't marry or participate in tribal affairs, you choose to do it for the perks.

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raics wrote:

Maybe that's conceptually a bad example, what if lab is supposed to be something like that rite of adulthood where you have to wear a glove full of bullet ants? It's extremely unpleasant, to put it mildly. Nobody's technically forcing you to, sure, but you aren't considered a man until you do so you can't marry or participate in tribal affairs, you choose to do it for the perks.

Well, some of us play video games so that we don't have to be "a man" (damn, sounds like I am some kind of tranny). Some of us play video games so that we don't have to "force ourselves" through boring stuff. When a video game is designed to be fun, why does it need an "unfun" part?

I think the lab failed, bot the idea and the execution. "We wanted to give softcore players a taste of hardcore elements". Who decided this was a good idea? People play softcore for a reason. Any ideas of giving hardcore players a taste of softcore elements?

The idea? Give players an "interesting" challenge to earn the ascendancy points, creating this labyrinth that people can race in and enchant their items. It's almost like they knew it would be unpopular as content, and threw in a lot of loot as a carrot.

Raics, can I ask you directly? How many lab runs do you do daily?

Sure, the bullet ant glove was a joke, but Zalhan is really overdoing it a bit, nobody's technically dragging him into the lab by the scruff of his neck and I'm pretty sure his balls won't fall of from a few runs.

About that softcore/hardcore thing, dunno, zerging is considered lame so maybe they tried to lift some of that softcore stigma by introducing an area you have to commit to. If they asked me if it was a good idea I'd say yes, in high levels of softcore you have to watch your death count if you want to get anywhere, it's good to develop the habit of avoiding death, hardcore or no.

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Phrazz wrote:

Raics, can I ask you directly? How many lab runs do you do daily?

Of course. Just a sec, I can answer that with fairly good accuracy. I'm levelling 2-3 characters a league since the lab was introduced, let's say it's 2,5, and maybe I'll ascend some old char in standard over that time, the total is probably closer to 3. Soo, it's 12 runs by 90 days, that comes down to 0,13 runs per day.