SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

I do not get the point of arguing if shitty content is shitty because it's too mushy or smells bad or makes people nauseous.

At the end of the day no one can argue many hate it enough to quit rather than pay to avoid content that should not be required.

We can argue with trolls who feel "stupid" has 4 letters and no matter what evidence you show, they will still refute you and twist english to argue with you.

Their amp goes to 11 it has to be louder.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I do not get the point of arguing if shitty content is shitty because it's too mushy or smells bad or makes people nauseous.

At the end of the day no one can argue many hate it enough to quit rather than pay to avoid content that should not be required.

We can argue with trolls who feel "stupid" has 4 letters and no matter what evidence you show, they will still refute you and twist english to argue with you.

Their amp goes to 11 it has to be louder.

Then just quit! I just don't see the problem here. Not every dish in the world will be to your liking, trust me. There will be things that will just not be for you. That doesn't make it bad.

I don't smoke or drink personally, I think alcohol ruins the taste of most drinks and smoking makes me nauseous when I'm not even smoking myself.

Does that mean everyone in the world should just stop drinking and smoking? Every drink should have its alcohol removed because I don't like it? Hell no. Drink up, me hearties! I'll drive you home safely after.

Can't you see that by your standard with removing the Lab, you are doing exactly what I described above? It's not for everyone and nothing ever will be. Even chocolate isn't. Think about it.

This thread is to discuss how else the ascendancy points could be assigned or how the Lab could be different to appeal to a larger crowd. It's not being removed and chances are you'll still think it's boring after the change. Be ready for that. Be ready to realize that a game isn't made just for you and you'll have to roll with it sometimes.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I don't see how faith in the playerbase has anything to do whatsoever with improving the quality of your own game, let alone with making a massive improvement to its most-hated content.

Such an improvement would equally benefit players who enjoy the trap gameplay. Player behavior is molded by affordances, by relative profitability, and by relative power. Until the lab is randomized and balanced around encouraging and rewarding exploration, it will continue to resemble work more than play, a chore you do not engage because you enjoy it but because you want specific rewards which can be found at designated spots published daily on reddit.

It doesn't, but I'm not doing the improving and it isn't my game, I don't think they rely on that much in GGG but they probably have the profile of an average player down better than I do. I know the average forum goer fairly well but average player is a stranger.

It would be an improvement for me because I like the exploration factor in an arpg (Sacred is a good example), it would also be an improvement to you, or Fruz. But to an average player? Can't say with any certainty but I have a feeling that it wouldn't be.

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raics wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

I don't see how faith in the playerbase has anything to do whatsoever with improving the quality of your own game, let alone with making a massive improvement to its most-hated content.

Such an improvement would equally benefit players who enjoy the trap gameplay. Player behavior is molded by affordances, by relative profitability, and by relative power. Until the lab is randomized and balanced around encouraging and rewarding exploration, it will continue to resemble work more than play, a chore you do not engage because you enjoy it but because you want specific rewards which can be found at designated spots published daily on reddit.

It doesn't, but I'm not doing the improving and it isn't my game, I don't think they rely on that much in GGG but they probably have the profile of an average player down better than I do. I know the average forum goer fairly well but average player is a stranger.

It would be an improvement for me because I like the exploration factor in an arpg (Sacred is a good example), it would also be an improvement to you, or Fruz. But to an average player? Can't say with any certainty but I have a feeling that it wouldn't be.

You and Fruz seem to always assume the worst in players.

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Pyrokar wrote:

You and Fruz seem to always assume the worst in players.

Heh, they say there's a fine line between just being cautious and being a misanthrope :)

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Zalhan2 wrote:

I do not get the point of [...]

I know, that has been clear (and not only to me I guess) for a long time
Don't hurt yourself.

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Pyrokar wrote:

You and Fruz seem to always assume the worst in players.

Well, not all players.

But if you do exactly what the majority of players say, the game is doomed.

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Fruz wrote:

I don't believe a single second that you do reach the "super good at the lab" level that I used.

You know, when you use your words "bad faith" against me (and others in this thread), where does a sentence like this put you?

I mean, if I was to call you a liar, you would find it hard to debate anything. I mean, being good at the lab while still not liking the gameplay is sort of the BASE standpoint of many players in here, including me. When you dismiss this BASE standpoint as a lie, just because logic, it becomes impossible to have a fluid debate with you, and YOU are making it personal for everyone else.

We have a saying in my country: "Looking in the mirror is the key to understand others" (bad translation, but you get the idea).

There is a possibility that the ones accusing others of being bad players are the ones that are bad since they judge by what they can or can't do or how hard they find something.

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Phrazz wrote:

We have a saying in my country: "Looking in the mirror is the key to understand others" (bad translation, but you get the idea).

Don't you also have 'mead is the cure for all ills'? :)
I'd say that the mirror thing these days is the key to becoming introverted and, in time, depressed. But then again, I'm no expert on the subject so take it with a grain of salt.

Maybe people use the mirror too much, if I and a number of like-minded people don't like the lab it has to be vastly disliked, right? But that's the thing I said about the player mentality, we know the average forum fly, but what's the average PoE player like? Probably plays less and is less invested in the game, likely knows less about the game or its development cycles and is less interested in it. That's something we can assume, but what's his reaction to the lab? Hell if I know, it might be similar and it might not, GGG probably knows more about it than we do, they have some stats at least and we don't have anything.

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Pyrokar wrote:

There is a possibility that the ones accusing others of being bad players are the ones that are bad since they judge by what they can or can't do or how hard they find something.

Yes. The majority of people debate from their own perceptions of something. If YOU find the lab hard as hell, that becomes the base of your arguments. If you find the lab easy, it becomes the base of your arguments.

What I fail to understand, is when someone finds the lab "easy", runs it fast, and at the same time doesn't believe that others are able to do it just as fast, because they don't get the same amount of "fun" out of it. That falls into the category; "arrogant", in my eyes.

It is frustrating to debate something, when the opposite part fail to see WHY we do not like the lab, and makes up THEIR reasons why WE do not like it. And while this has been written by most people in here, I try again:

It is not the difficulty of the lab we dislike. It is not the "time it takes", even tho it is an factor. It is the design we don't like. I don't play certain genres because I don't like the gameplay and design. This platformer elements, avoiding traps, jump here, jump there, find keys to open doors. It isn't fun.

While "doing it faster" lets us spend less time in this "unfun" environment, doesn't make it that much better. Because let's face it. People running the lab "fast", are in a position to bypass the "gameplay" elements of the lab, making it a more or less a "running simulator", which, again, is not fun. And surprise; a lot of us play video games to have fun.

The whole idea of an RPG, is to specialize your character in certain ways, make him strong, powerful and awesome. The lab takes a crap at MOST of these choices, making it a content not suited for RPG's as a whole.

And then along comes the argument: "But it's such a small part of the game!". Yes, maybe it is small. But it is still the largest themed design of the game. There are 14 trials and 4 labs. And while this can be done in 30 minutes - IF you are in a position to bypass the gameplay design of the whole thing, it is 30 minutes of bore.

For me, it isn't game breaking. But the thought of "having to do it", is a disruptive thought. No one likes the idea of "having to do something we hate", but the lab offerst that thought to everyone not liking the lab. And that thought is constant, from level 1 until we've finished with it.

It puts a "hold" on everything for a lot of players.