SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Fruz wrote:
peace is an illusion, exile :(.


Like HELL it is. If you read the definition of "peace", you would know...

I keed :)
Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
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Fruz wrote:
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Turtledove wrote:
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Fruz wrote:
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But if you are very good at it and take a very small amount of time doing it, then you can hardly find it boring.
...


So that's your point you've been beating around the bush about for the last many dozens of pages! HAHAHA

It is an absurd not true assertion for everyone. Maybe for you but not for me. Obviously not for Phrazz or probably anyone one else around here.

I'll give you an A for effort but an F for presentation and an F overall for being flat out wrong.

You really, seriously, genuinely didn't understand it ???
I'm pretty positive that you don't fall in the "very good at it and take a very small amount of time doing it" anyway, so you surely do find it boring.


You are flat out wrong and really have no clue. You are being ridiculous to think that you know my mind better than me.

I know you don't listen and have no clue nor interest in understanding. That much has been made clear. I'll try to explain it again anyway but, more for others since you're a hopeless case.

The boring aspect of the labyrinth for me has to do with the details of the game play. It has much less to do with the length of time. The platformer-jump-here-run-there game play is boring to me, especially the mediocre implementation in lab. The arpg-kill-monsters-get-loot game play is fun and PoE does it best. It is the activity that is boring and unfun not the time doing the activity. While it is true that a longer boring activity is more boring than a shorter boring activity in this context, it is generally not true that making the activity a little shorter is going to make it not boring. So practicing the bad content and getting fast at it would not make it not boring or fun for me. On the other hand, if trap lengths in the labyrinth became 500 milliseconds then, it would indeed become not boring. This doesn't mean that Fruz is correct. What it would mean is that 500 milliseconds is not enough trap content to turn the game play into platformer-jump-here-run-there.

Lab is shit. Lab is not fun content. This idea that getting good at the the boring labyrinth is going to make me like labyrinth because the time it takes to go through it would be shorter is brain dead Looney Toon cartoon thinking. Those Looney Toon cartoon characters can be kind of funny though when smashing into walls and then little stars circle around their head as they're in the dazed and confused state of mind as they contemplate their next ridiculous idea.
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
I never said that you should practice the content, as I pointed out earlier ( probably more than once ).


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Turtledove wrote:
On the other hand, if trap lengths in the labyrinth became 500 milliseconds then, it would indeed become not boring. This doesn't mean that Fruz is correct. What it would mean is that 500 milliseconds is not enough trap content to turn the game play into platformer-jump-here-run-there.

It means that you are acknowledging the relation between boredom and time.

And I am saying that if you took less than 10 mins per lab (including 1 min total of traps ? or 2 maybe ?), you would most likely not have came here and cried those rivers in the forums.
This is obviously my opinion, and I'm not really interested in trying to convince you, to be honest.



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Turtledove wrote:
This idea that getting good at the the boring labyrinth is going to make me like labyrinth

See ?
tens of pages later, still not understanding and putting words in other people's mouth.
Or it means an awful lot of bad faith.
Or a little bit of both.

Ahh, I see that you changed your antagonizing silly analogies from "eating shit" -> "braindead looney tunes".
Should we see that as a progress ? :)
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz on Jun 26, 2017, 2:14:20 PM
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Fruz wrote:
I never said that you should practice the content, as I pointed out earlier ( probably more than once ).


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Turtledove wrote:
On the other hand, if trap lengths in the labyrinth became 500 milliseconds then, it would indeed become not boring. This doesn't mean that Fruz is correct. What it would mean is that 500 milliseconds is not enough trap content to turn the game play into platformer-jump-here-run-there.

It means that you are acknowledging the correlation between boredom and time.

And I am saying that if you took less than 10 mins per lab, you would most likely not have came here and cried those rivers in the forums.
This is obviously my opinion, and I'm really interested in trying to convince you, to be honest.


No, you're once again making the silly claim that you know my own mind better than me. Less than 10 minutes is irrelevant. It would still be 10 minutes of boring not fun content. You will never convince me that you know my own mind better than me. Thinking that you do only shows [Removed by Support]

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Fruz wrote:
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Turtledove wrote:
This idea that getting good at the the boring labyrinth is going to make me like labyrinth

See ?
tens of pages later, still not understanding and putting words in other people's mouth.
Or it means an awful lot of bad faith.
Or a little bit of both.

Ahh, I see that you changed your antagonizing silly analogies from "eating shit" -> "braindead looney tunes".
Should we see that as a progress ? :)


[Removed by Support]

As the dung beetle said, "I love eating poop. Perhaps if you practiced eating poop so that you could do it in less than 10 minutes then you would stop complaining about having to eat poop."
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
Last edited by Stacey_GGG on Jun 26, 2017, 2:19:51 PM
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You're also moving into the question "What kind of challenges do people like?", which is usually closely connected to the genre of the games you choose play. This is a big part of why moving across genres in a single game can be risky, doubly so if you haven't been clear with your players ahead of time about where a game's development is headed (that applies in this case).

Yes, in quite a few posts I'm talking in general terms. I see Phrazz asked why are we here and the big part of it is my curiosity about game design, the situation with the lab is rather peculiar so I feel there might be something to learn here. I'd like to get to the bottom of it and see what exactly makes you tick, there might be more to it than simply 'I don't like it'.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.

◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]►
◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]►
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Turtledove wrote:
[...]


And you know exactly what you would have done in any other situations that hasn't happened, of course.

Keep blindly not trying to understand, it's fine, you can keep ignoring everything that isn't convenient to you if you want after all, some people do that I guess.
A little bit like a broken record.


And there, the analogy about eating poop again.
Nop, no progress at all at the end, sad ...



PS : I didn't save my edit before really late, you quoted an old version of my post (= I'm obviously not interesting in trying to convince you, there was a word missing).

SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz on Jun 26, 2017, 2:22:18 PM
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Fruz wrote:
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Turtledove wrote:
[...]


And you know exactly what you would have done in any other situations that hasn't happened, of course.

Keep blindly not trying to understand, it's fine, you can keep ignoring everything that isn't convenient to you if you want after all, some people do that I guess.
A little bit like a broken record.


And there, the analogy about eating poop again.
Nop, no progress at all at the end, sad ...



PS : I didn't save my edit before really late, you quoted an old version of my post (= I'm obviously not interesting in trying to convince you, there was a word missing).



You ignored all those posts by others that also claimed your theory was not true. You ignore my own statements that your theory is not true for me yet you continue to push your ridiculous theory. There is absolutely zero support of your theory, absolutely nothing! You are very similar to a broken hypocrite record.

Our resident dung beetle says, "I love eating poop. It is also fun to roll into balls and then roll little balls of poop around. Burying balls of poop shows responsibility and saving for the future. Poop is very handy to burrow into and make a little home for me and my family. Poop is glorious and the most wonderful thing in the world. Elephant poop is really good but, labyrinth poop is the best. This is because there is an endless supply of delicious wonderful poop in the labyrinth. I know your mind better than you. You will stop complaining about eating poop if only you got really good at eating poop. I know you complained about the taste of poop but I'll ignore that fact and instead accuse you of ignoring what I'm telling you. Now go roll some poop around and enjoy the delicious aroma."
Wikipedia Dung beetle article
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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raics wrote:
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<stuff was here>

Yes, in quite a few posts I'm talking in general terms. I see Phrazz asked why are we here and the big part of it is my curiosity about game design, the situation with the lab is rather peculiar so I feel there might be something to learn here. I'd like to get to the bottom of it and see what exactly makes you tick, there might be more to it than simply 'I don't like it'.
The earlier post gives details about what, specifically, I find objectionable about lab. A fairly decent differently themed summary would be that I like killing stuff that poses a moderate to high level of challenge, and that a big percentage of the time spent in lab is spent wandering around a maze, through trap gauntlets, while not killing stuff.

When I played D2, I discovered hardcore gameplay and I've never been able to sustain interest in any characters other than hardcore characters since then, at least not in ARPGs.

I found out early in my D2 travels that twinked characters trivialized most content, which was boring. So, I played various definitions of naked hardcore characters, eventually completing a guardian cycle for them. I relied on group play for hell difficulty Ancients for all characters in that cycle, and for nightmare difficulty Ancients for all but one character in that cycle. I solo'd all other bosses in all difficulties for that cycle, including the Countess, Battlemaid Sarina, and Nihlithak^. For my guardian cycle I followed the "nothing showing" definition of naked play, meaning no weapons, shields, etc, but using potions, jewelry, a belt, and charms*.

Naked hardcore play in D2 made most encounters potentially dangerous and it was really all about playing well; potions may or may not save you from a single mistake, but you can't rely on gear to save you if you keep screwing up.

Often I would be soloing while there were up to 7 other players in different parts of the same game in which I was playing. On more than a few occasions my naked character saved the gear of a well geared teammate who had fallen to a MSLE, FE, or other cause. Eventually, some others expressed an interest in experiencing D2 in a different way and I tutored a fair number in how to use movement and positioning to make naked play viable for D2 hardcore.

It would be funny, bloody hilarious in fact, to hear what are probably a bunch of youngsters lecturing about how those who dislike lab want an easier game. Except that the same bullshit excuse is probably circulating inside GGG for why players dislike lab.

^ Edited to include that caveat that I did Nihl on all difficulties if my character had a corpse removal skill (or access to a spell that freezes, like the sorceress). I don't recall my amazon having such a skill, though, and if she didn't then I wouldn't have tried to solo Nihl nightmare / hell difficulties with her.

* If you think this is easy, then give it a try and report back on how things go.
Now that prestige classes will finally leave lab in 4.0, will GGG get it right this time or will they find new ways to repeat old mistakes?
Last edited by EnjoyTheJourney on Jun 27, 2017, 12:32:59 AM
My thoughts on the "Difficulty" of the Labyrinth and "FUN".
(Note, I still play the game, 21 challenges this league)

When I was researching this game before I started playing, it *seemed* like they wanted it to have all these complex interactions between defenses and types of attacks and an almost limitless ability to create your character, building any way you liked. The freedom of the skilldrasil from any starting point, and choice of any skill gems and then adding whatever support gems you wanted to customize how you attacked... it all sounded so cool and FUN. Something I could sink my teeth into and enjoy theorycrafting and then executing.

I have strange character ideas from short stories I wrote that I like to re-create in games, using the same set of names for my characters, yet they usually don't fit most games' pre-set character types. Here, free to do as I like, I have created pseudo-versions of my characters (yet, there are still no glaives, and dual wielding (melee in general) is not a visceral or rewarding gameplay experience for me, but that's not the point of this thread.)

Up until the Labyrinth and the Ascendancy expansion, this all held true, and was fun, to a point. No matter how trivial the grinding of monsters became at some points (easy), the game itself was fun for me (inventory management with only 4 tabs is what usually kills my motivation to continue once I hit maps, when I'm avoiding thinking about the Labyrinth at all - nowadays, considering the Labyrinth as part of a character design automatically causes me to lose interest in the character from the start, so bleh).

The main reasons for my disliking the Labyrinth, as I've outlined in previous extended posts, is that the Labyrinth and its traps operate under a different set of rules and style of gameplay (that the interface is not well-suited for), compared to the rest of the game (aside from the Argus and Izaro boss fights that are classic PoE style encounters -minus traps in Izaro's room.) You can say "Nuh uh, it follows the same rules and plays just the same." all you like, but it rings false in my ears. It just doesn't hold up when considering the gameplay required to navigate the labyrinth. (That and the Devs even said they were trying to create totally different gameplay.) It was experimental content that failed in the eyes of many. They should not have put something so key to character development behind experimental content, IMO.

*** Simply put, most character stats are ignored in the Labyrinth, and the gameplay associated with the Labyrinth is built around challenges that some builds can trivialize and others must compensate for with painstakingly annoying point-click precision maneuvering and timing in a game using pathfinding to move to where you tell your character to go (Imagine point-click pac-man where he doesn't take the path you want him to take to get around a wall and you end up running into a ghost... yeah... that's what we have in the Labyrinth.) These are design flaws of the content, based on the content of the rest of the game, and the control scheme, IMO ***

It is not fun for my character build decisions to be ignored. It is not fun when my defenses do not defend me. I want life and life restoring flasks to always be beneficial to staying alive (flasks become less effective in keeping you alive in the Labyrinth the more HP you have, since traps do more % damage to more health and flasks do not scale) There's more than just that... just don't want to list them all AGAIN.

This is all outside the disconnecting issues and restarting the entire challenge on death/disconnect. And the Labyrinth sometimes *feels like* an act-long section of the game without waypoints. The lack of waypoints in an online game, where you restart the entire minigame on disconnect/death is a design flaw (it is not fun to waste my time), IMO, regardless of what they were trying to prevent or encourage by means of this decision.

The trap rules grant advantages to some types of builds and disadvantages to others, yet all have to pass through the same gauntlet as if it were an equal test. I contend that this is not a fun (or even challenging) test for all builds, and forcing all builds to go through it is not fun for them if the stats they focus on are ignored and they have to suffer through the trap gameplay.

This is different from, say... Atziri or Shaper that all characters do NOT have to deal with to advance their characters. You can buy their drops in trade leagues. You can build a character to fight them if there is a League-challenge involving them SSF. You cannot build a Labyrinth character to focus on just that to ascend all your characters.

Even if they make the rest of the Labyrinth more rewarding in the Silver Key chests and such, the only reward I care to get out of the Labyrinth are the Ascendancy Class points. You can get (most of the) loot anywhere else. It would be nice to make exploring more rewarding, but I don't think that is simply a Labyrinth issue. All maps would benefit from secret chambers and extra things to find. The main benefit to making the entire labyrinth more rewarding would be minimizing the feeling of it being a total waste of time when disconnecting mid-labyrinth - not a bad idea, but not fixing the labyrinth by any means.

For some people, the Labyrinth can totally feel like a sadistic kid's prank (As if they said, "What if they had to (insert worst case scenario)"... "yeah, let's make them do that!"..., and if you like being pranked, I think you're a little masochistic.)

The design flaws I see here are things that I think should be *fixed*, and I'd say that it's more than simply an opinion that "I don't like it" and the devs do. There are gameplay issues here (and conceptual issues) that I don't think should be ignored. If the current implementation of traps started appearing in more of the game than the Labyrinth and a couple maps, I'd be far less likely to keep playing. There's only so much one can ignore to enjoy the rest. (I recently bought Grim Dawn when it was on sale because it has an editor to make my own content, and a friend recently bought Elder Scrolls Online for the PS4, so I bought it, and have been playing that too - both more fun than PoE with the Labyrinth, right now)

Who knows, maybe 3.0 will fully make PoE into a one-hit-kill bullet-hell-shooter with trap minigames everywhere, where your build choices only matter against fodder, bosses are fought by shooting lasers from your ship and piloting around avoiding all the crazy screens of deadly particles, and completely disgust me.


To make the Labyrinth more FUN to me, and not a disappointing mini-game

I don't expect the 1st suggestion to be implemented, too much work, but so much more fun...
I do think the 3rd suggestion is the best solution to nearly all the issues people have with the current Labyrinth, keeps the lore in tact, and it's not giving the points out for free.


1st Suggestion:
Keep traps as a hazard, but not nearly as dangerous depending on character choices (skilltree, armor, evasion!, block, even curses. Make those choices have real impact on the traps. Currently, Regen helps, endurance charges help... flasks help... movement speed almost cheats the labyrinth.

If traps weren't so deadly, but just hazards that hurt if you don't watch your positioning...

Depending on those changes, trap density in the Labyrinth maps could be far less or even higher, but still impact battles. (The Labyrinth would keep the "flavor" of trap-influenced danger)

* Why not slow down traps with temporal chains or make them less dangerous with enfeeble?)

* On that note, increase the mob density. Add Mobs that have AI and abilities that interact with traps, such as "pull player toward me, into a trap" and "push into a trap" or "blackhole" effects to draw players into traps. Obviously can't do this with the current implementation.

* Some mobs could even activate traps on their own, like a slam attack that pushes the spikes up from a nearby spike trap.

* Maybe there are trap-building mobs, similar to the miners in act4 that dig up golems... but maybe they release roombas or spike pillars... maybe they only fix the "broken" traps that currently exist in the layouts.

* Maybe add mobs that re-activate traps that you can turn off by flipping switches (means killing them is part of navigating a trap area, otherwise the traps turn back on while you're in the middle of them!)

* Perhaps allow player attacks to freeze certain traps with ice attacks, or melt some with fire attacks, short circuit some with lightning attacks, break some with physical attacks, etc)

* Include methods to disarm areas of traps (like finding a lever behind a false wall - guarded by stronger monsters - possessed tri-essence with a talisman style monsters)

* Maybe let ice attacks freeze timed switches for doors to give yourself more time.

* Maybe add locked rooms that you need to full-clear of monsters to unlock and progress (like Daresso's dream pits).

THESE are "FUN" encounters with traps, in a labyrinth. They incorporate the monsters, they don't ignore build choices, they reward clever interactions with the environment. Under these conditions, I'd gladly see the Labyrinth randomized on each entry. (Could keep the Izaro mechanics the same for each day, so that sort of info could be shared and planned for.)

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2nd Suggestion:
IF THE TRAPS ARE NOT CHANGED AS OUTLINED ABOVE

I'm a fan of my initial suggestion for those who don't like the Labyrinth trap gameplay at all, but to keep the Labyrinth related to attaining the Ascendancy Points, if I had a choice in the matter:

Find an alternative entrance to the Labyrinth - the escape tunnels for the builders, except they never escaped. This is 1 trapless labyrinth style map, with 3 locking boss chambers for the 3 Izaro battles (third battle might be ok to have the traps in his chamber - but shut them off when he dies already!). Waves of fodder mobs (the builders who didn't escape in these escape tunnels) are fought between these boss rooms to refill flasks. Argus could be fought during one of these waves. The only reward is Ascendancy Points - no drops either.

Too easy to just find the alternate entrance on your own? Ok, 3rd suggestion ahead:

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3rd Suggestion:
A quest-line based on Forsaken Masters to obtain Ascendancy Points (no labyrinth uniques or enchants, or any other loot).
Haku for Marauders, Tora for Hunters, etc.
You might need to get them to rank 5 for the first quest to gain the first 2 ascendancy points, rank 6 for the next 2, rank 7 for 2 more, and rank 8 for access to the final 2 points.

Each quest linked to ascendancy points could be handled similarly to the "Daily Missions" on one-time maps that require a boss fight (this would be my 2nd suggestion Izaro battle - For instance: One of the red glowy guys you rescue for Haku might reveal the entrance, or Tora could help you track down the entrance by following nature, or Catarina notices a stray undead that crawled out of a hidden tunnel... or you get the idea. Doesn't have to be complicated). I wouldn't limit them to once a day, but one entry per map. (Prevents death-zerging and town portals for flasks) If there needs to be a longer quest chain than a daily mission, they could send you to rarely used zones (Like the dread thicket to kill a boss for an item that then is used to open the daily-mission-style labyrinth boss gauntlet)

Since Forsaken Master progress is shared in a league, yes, this would eventually make it easier to get the ascendancies for subsequent characters, similar to how finishing the trials are saved per league.

Rotating dailies to speed up this progress won't make it any faster than getting a character to merciless Sarn for their first 6 points through regular labyrinths, and then joining parties in maps to get their uber trials for final points. (People love to spout out 5-15minute completion times for their Labyrinth runs taking less than an hour per character to get all their ascendancy points.)

For only gaining Ascendancy Points, I think this is a pretty good alternative.
Labyrinth Runners would still go for the Ascendancy points AND Enchants AND profit AND racing ladders. AND they can run it all earlier in the leagues since masters take much more time to level.

As a side note, I only play SSF, always have, MIGHT trade if they fix trade (make it in-game, and not requiring both people to be on at the same time). So, for me, no daily rotations to speed up progression, and I doubt I'd get even one master to rank 8 by the end of a 3 month league. Just so ya know I'm not really fully benefiting from this suggestion for league play, but I still think it's better than what we have now.





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Zaludoz wrote:
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I recently bought Grim Dawn when it was on sale because it has an editor to make my own content, and a friend recently bought Elder Scrolls Online for the PS4, so I bought it, and have been playing that too - both more fun than PoE with the Labyrinth, right now
I've also found Grim Dawn more enjoyable than post-lab POE overall, along with ESO.

I'm actually still playing POE nowadays, although not as often. I'm running a SSF hardcore templar summoner who will never ascend. I'll see how deep I can push him into the game.

I'm considering putting up a post in another forum to get an "Original Class" build compendium going. That way, when 3.0 drops those who like a higher level of challenge, who want to experience the game another way, and/or who just don't want to run lab anymore end up with a resource to help them successfully achieve their goals.
Now that prestige classes will finally leave lab in 4.0, will GGG get it right this time or will they find new ways to repeat old mistakes?

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