SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

Though there is a correlation between overly easy content and perceptions of that content as boring, you cannot magically make intrinsically boring content interesting by simply ramping up the difficulty, as you are proposing lab haters do.

Now wait a sec there, what I'm saying is that it works for me and I'm strongly suggesting to people that find the lab boring to give it an honest try because it can't hurt. If I thought it was a magical cure-all for the lab issue I'd be suggesting to just increase the difficulty as readily as 1-2-3. Alas, the problems it has are anything but concentrated like that.

Though, now that you mentioned it, I've seen people here asking to buff up the ordinary monsters in the lab a bit, maybe add more mini bosses like those ghosts of ascendants past that a prophecy plants in there, that couldn't hurt either.

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

Diablo 3 before they made it more like POE was easy and boring.

Par'n me if I'm wrong because I haven't been following it too closely, but wasn't vanilla D3 the hardest one? Heard people saying it only went Mr. Underhill from there.

"

raics wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

Though there is a correlation between overly easy content and perceptions of that content as boring, you cannot magically make intrinsically boring content interesting by simply ramping up the difficulty, as you are proposing lab haters do.

Now wait a sec there, what I'm saying is that it works for me and I'm strongly suggesting to people that find the lab boring to give it an honest try because it can't hurt. If I thought it was a magical cure-all for the lab issue I'd be suggesting to just increase the difficulty as readily as 1-2-3. Alas, the problems it has are anything but concentrated like that.

Though, now that you mentioned it, I've seen people here asking to buff up the ordinary monsters in the lab a bit, maybe add more mini bosses like those ghosts of ascendants past that a prophecy plants in there, that couldn't hurt either.

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

Diablo 3 before they made it more like POE was easy and boring.

Par'n me if I'm wrong because I haven't been following it too closely, but wasn't vanilla D3 the hardest one? Heard people saying it only went Mr. Underhill from there.

Worse like Lab now it was pay to win.

A friend was going bankrupt at work in a messy divorce so he blew like 2K on gear and D3 was easy. Yea you had too farm act one 10000 times to get gear. People "loved" that. Unlike GGG they admitted their error and removed the pay to win and went to far the other way. Then they added harder content but yea its still easy till the really high levels.

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

A friend was going bankrupt at work in a messy divorce so he blew like 2K on gear and D3 was easy. Yea you had too farm act one 10000 times to get gear. People "loved" that. Unlike GGG they admitted their error and removed the pay to win and went to far the other way. Then they added harder content but yea its still easy till the really high levels.

Hmm, so if I got that right they jacked up the numbers so people would have to RMT and they could rub off every deal made, eh? Sneaky, very sneaky.

Though if I know anything about how Bliz does things, hell if they meant that about errors of their ways. The market probably just died down at that point so the profit wasn't worth the bad rep anymore.

"

raics wrote:

"

Zalhan2 wrote:

A friend was going bankrupt at work in a messy divorce so he blew like 2K on gear and D3 was easy. Yea you had too farm act one 10000 times to get gear. People "loved" that. Unlike GGG they admitted their error and removed the pay to win and went to far the other way. Then they added harder content but yea its still easy till the really high levels.

Hmm, so if I got that right they jacked up the numbers so people would have to RMT and they could rub off every deal made, eh? Sneaky, very sneaky.

Though if I know anything about how Bliz does things, hell if they meant that about errors of their ways. The market probably just died down at that point so the profit wasn't worth the bad rep anymore.

I didn't play D3 back then but my understanding was that the RMT money wasn't going to Blizzard but instead to third party RMT companies.

"

Turtledove wrote:

I didn't play D3 back then but my understanding was that the RMT money wasn't going to Blizzard but instead to third party RMT companies.

Dunno, I seem to remember reading something about a cut from every transaction through the RM auction house going to Bliz. I'd be honestly surprised if it didn't.

Something about that whole 'honesty and integrity beating the nefarious creator pride in the end' thingy doesn't sit right with me, seems like a bloody fairytale and nothing like the way Bliz does things, they play by the numbers now.

"

raics wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

Though there is a correlation between overly easy content and perceptions of that content as boring, you cannot magically make intrinsically boring content interesting by simply ramping up the difficulty, as you are proposing lab haters do.

Now wait a sec there, what I'm saying is that it works for me and I'm strongly suggesting to people that find the lab boring to give it an honest try because it can't hurt. If I thought it was a magical cure-all for the lab issue I'd be suggesting to just increase the difficulty as readily as 1-2-3. Alas, the problems it has are anything but concentrated like that.

Though, now that you mentioned it, I've seen people here asking to buff up the ordinary monsters in the lab a bit, maybe add more mini bosses like those ghosts of ascendants past that a prophecy plants in there, that couldn't hurt either.

To be fair, your exact words were "my aforementioned stance on the issue is 'lab is boring because you made it boring.'" I respectfully disagree.

Most of us already have the experience you recommend giving an honest try, or some variation of it, due to the way the Labyrinth scales with each level. You will eventually reach one which is challenging for you, especially if you play sub-optimal builds (my non-double-dipping namelock melee HC Hierophant comes to mind) or insist on playing SSF. It does not make the Labyrinth more compelling for us, because--surprise, surprise--difficulty was never the reason we find the content boring.

In my case (and I suspect that of many others), any content which discourages exploration as wholeheartedly as the Labyrinth will inevitably be boring. And therefore GGG could apply all the Band-Aids in the world, and it will remain boring for as long as they don't fix that most-fundamental problem, and reward exploration instead of punishing it. (I propose that the requests you mention for randomly adding mini-bosses are a direct reflection of this widely disliked dynamic.)

No, it is not a question of time. The pre-Izaro Labyrinth is not demonstrably less boring during the first five minutes than during the last, because the problem I just cited is static, and applies equally to both. I do become more irritated the longer I play it, because I don't like to be forced to endure a boring activity as a prerequisite for choosing my character's subclass, but the boringness per se does not really change (sorry, Fruz).

Furthermore, I am not lying about my experience nor dishonestly misrepresenting it in order to create an argument in "bad faith." I am an honest person (sorry, Fruz).

Finally, a few language nitpicks for those who were playing word games to try to strengthen their own argument / weaken others':

1. Unfun is a word. A relatively recent word, granted, but it is standard English. It is not in all dictionaries yet, however (including the Scrabble dictionary). Incidentally, neither was "ninja" until very recently. (I blame a pirate conspiracy.)

2. Unfun =/= boring. (The most common antonym for "boring" is "exciting," not "fun.") I find all boring activities to be unfun, including the Labyrinth, but not all unfun activities to be boring. As a simple example, would you say getting punched in the face is boring? Because I'm pretty sure it's not fun.

"

"

raics wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

I didn't play D3 back then but my understanding was that the RMT money wasn't going to Blizzard but instead to third party RMT companies.

Dunno, I seem to remember reading something about a cut from every transaction through the RM auction house going to Bliz. I'd be honestly surprised if it didn't.

Something about that whole 'honesty and integrity beating the nefarious creator pride in the end' thingy doesn't sit right with me, seems like a bloody fairytale and nothing like the way Bliz does things, they play by the numbers now.

Blizz made it obnoxious purposely to drive players to the RMAH where they got a fee on every sale.

You're remembering correctly.

The point is they fixed it, and admitted they fucked up. We are still waiting for GGG to do that with the pay to win lab.