SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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Turtledove wrote:

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Pyrokar wrote:

A forum is for posting. They don't like the feedback, they are free to go to another forum.

Or to not read threads that are about labyrinth. As Homer Simpson would say, "Duh"

It is fine if the discussion stays in one thread like this one. Because honestly there are a lot of reasons:

a) Easier to keep track for staff members
b) Doesn't spam the forum that much
c) Honestly it is fairly likely that almost any argument was already traded for and against the lab in that thread

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You're suggesting that shortly after what is easily the most hated and widely panned new content in the game arrives, it just so happens that "real" ARPG lovers have mostly tried POE and it's primarily those who are disposed to be less interested who are showing up. I suppose it's possible. That's not a strong hypothesis, though.

With Ascendancy GGG also launched a huge marketing campaign. And they have gotten better and better at this. This way they reached a lot of people that hadn't PoE on their radar already. They did that again with Prophecy and are trying to do this now with Atlas again. But Ascendancy had likely the biggest campaign around it.

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Eventually the numbers will convince them the lab is costing them more players than it brings in. This game is a business afterall and money talks and dung beetles walk or something like that.

They will if they feel they need to. But then again they have a big issue. Half or even more of the people disliking the lab even openly in the forum are entirely unable to give a clear reason why.

There are reasonable arguments, but those are things not really in GGGs control.

Technical issues are a lot harder, at least for standard players. If you play due to a lag you just die lose a bit of XP and move on, punishing at high levels, but a lot of players never get chars that high. The lab punishs you directly for dying, which can happen due to lag. Hardcore players should be used to this, but for standard players, which are a huge majority this is new. And it is very reasonable to argue that technical issues are the biggest thread to enjoyable lab experience. After I moved and only had my laptop with WLAN I hated the lab, because now with a more stable connection there is hardly an issue.

Traps ignoring defenses. Again something that is a valid argument, however in the long run it makes trap damage more predictable. If they had to consider physical mitigation the traps would likely oneshot some characters and hardly scratch others, that isn't really a good design. All traps aren't that hard to pass without flasks or high regeneration, so it isn't too punishing having a high HP char. And ES now is actually incredible easy, exspecially CI occultist had already a fairly easy time in the lab, now its super easy. Only Lowlife and Hybrids have issues there, but not to the extent that they can't finish the lab, because again there aren't many traps in the lab.

Not being able to trade from inside the lab is another argument. I it exeggerated but almost anyone I pmed for a trade was in lab at this time. Maybe they use it as an excuse, I didn't really check but I often had to wait for them, which on the other hand seems that at least those active enough to engage in trading are running the lab regularly or only when I want to trade with them.

The point is they spent a lot of money and time on a lot of major improvements and the numbers got worse because all these new players tried it and hit the Lab and quit.

They could have done nothing and had the same number of players and had less drop off.

Clearly the Lab is a player killer.

GGG to their credit has not cared about popularity over what they feel is correct gameplay. I complained about the old loot rules in beta (ffa loot) and their position was they felt it was unpopular with many but they felt it was the right approach.

They do change their minds over time. I do not think it will be (like FFA) for many weeks or months. Does not mean we should shut up or that we are wrong.

Or they are going to change it, who really knows.

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Zalhan2 wrote:

The point is they spent a lot of money and time on a lot of major improvements and the numbers got worse because all these new players tried it and hit the Lab and quit.

They could have done nothing and had the same number of players and had less drop off.

Clearly the Lab is a player killer.

GGG to their credit has not cared about popularity over what they feel is correct gameplay. I complained about the old loot rules in beta (ffa loot) and their position was they felt it was unpopular with many but they felt it was the right approach.

They do change their minds over time. I do not think it will be (like FFA) for many weeks or months. Does not mean we should shut up or that we are wrong.

Or they are going to change it, who really knows.

No way to prove that claim, you are assuming a lot by stating that which honestly just makes you look like a fool.


Clearly the lab isn't the killer or GGG would have already changed it or announced a change in 2.4, clearly there might be other factors to consider, but by all means keep repeating the same incorrect information, maybe you can get your other lab hating friends to agree on it, but anyone that can actually think would realize your just stating random shit and seeing if it sticks.


You should shutup about it because it makes it impossible to hear the feedback from players that actually might provide insight or actually well thought out feedback, we all know you, turtle, regulator, and Pyrokar dislike the lab.

Anyone that can recognize the fact that you constantly complaining about the same thing to make the issue appear larger can realize that. Anyone that can see GGG's stance is clearly set that the lab is going to be the option to get the points.

They will change the lab when it makes business sense and a fix is in place. It must be a large undertaking. I expect it to hit at 3.0 with a huge host of other improvements to the game. Probably the biggest update of all time that will really tell us where the path is headed. Only they know the true numbers on lab and I get the sense those numbers are becoming more and more clear from alt creation, player retention, and the like. Just one look at their own forums and it is clear they have an issue. Lab is polarizing. Splitting the base and doing nothing itself is detrimental to the game and costing them players. Players do not put up with a toxic community, absent company, and broken gameplay forever.

^
sweet desillusions ....

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Zalhan2 wrote:

The point is they spent a lot of money and time on a lot of major improvements and the numbers got worse because all these new players tried it and hit the Lab and quit.

They could have done nothing and had the same number of players and had less drop off.

Clearly the Lab is a player killer.

Another bunch of blatant lies taken out of your magic hat, you have one more time absolutely nothing to support that claim.

The only thing i don't like about the lab is that there are no check points. It's not fun to disconnect or crash in the last room with izaro. We should be able to restart from a checkpoint if that happens.

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4) Players that die or disconnect or simply get out of the labyrinth via a portal can choose to enter the labyrinth again and teleported to the most recent checkpoint they activated or the portal they opened which will lead to the aspirants trial plaza. Doing so also forfeits every kind of reward except ascendancy points. Everything else remains the same. -Regulator

Good idea but i don't agree with losing all rewards for using a checkpoint. Some of us already got our ascendancy points and just want to do lab runs for izaro's treasure chests. We can't help it if we crash or disconnect.

If i have to forfeit this when using a checkpoint there is no point for me going back in at all except the first time for ascendancy points.

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Emphasy wrote:

They will if they feel they need to. But then again they have a big issue. Half or even more of the people disliking the lab even openly in the forum are entirely unable to give a clear reason why.

I don't see this at all. While I agree with what you are perhaps intending to say, that their reasons do not give enough information to be immediately useful to GGG, even the less eloquent of posters are usually able to say things such as "it's boring," "it feels unrewarding," or "it feels like work."

Now the meat of the issue is not whether people find it boring, unrewarding, or more like work than like play. Because people obviously do.

The meat of the issue, as you imply--correctly--is WHY do they find it this way, and WHY don't they find other areas of the game this way?

I've given my own theories for this earlier in this thread, but a lot of lab defenders seem more interested in trying to derail the discussion back to the "whether" and away from the "why." (And those who dislike the lab are taking the bait, and allowing themselves to be derailed. Stop doing that.)

"People don't really dislike the lab as much as you say."
"You are exaggerating the problem."
"There is no distinction between the lab and other parts of the game."

And, most significantly,

"People who feel that way are wrong."

As if an opinion or feeling, ANY opinion or feeling, can be logically wrong.

Not only are these statements unhelpful, straw men, or illogical, they are generally BORING, because they've been stated, knocked down, restated, knocked down again, and so on ad nauseam.

So let's focus instead on the more interesting question of "why," because that's far more interesting than

"You lie."
"No, you lie."
"No, you do."
"Nuh uh."
"Yuh huh."

People engaged in this kind of conversation, you know who you are. Stop boring us to tears. Please. :)

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kompaniet wrote:

This picture alone and countless others are enough to prove that the labyrinth is already overwhelmed with rewards and loot pinatas more than any other part of the game and on top of that it cockblocks character progression too.

And what we ask? An alternative way to get the ascendancy points by just fighting Izaro without ANY of the other rewards. Yes too much to ask, against the lore and other nonsense. I call bullshit. And when bullshit is called, dung beetles arive.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

The meat of the issue, as you imply--correctly--is WHY do they find it this way, and WHY don't they find other areas of the game this way?

Well I can see couple of things about that :
1- Cannot really overgear traps
2- Cannot save progress ( more hardcore like )
3- Have to think, different from brainlessly zerging everything on the screen ( related to 1 of course ).
4- Technical issues

The last one is definitely something that needs to be looked at, GGG has greatly improved it already.

Now, would the lab have received such complains if it had been done 2 years ago, where people were not used to just instantly kill everything and the game was at a slower pace (and was closer to a "hardcore" experience) ?
I do not think so, at least proportionally less imho.

This is of course just my opinion, but I do feel that ther is a lot of bad faith in many cases, relted to the 3rd point there.

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Regulator wrote:

And what we ask? An alternative way to get the ascendancy points by just fighting Izaro without ANY of the other rewards. Yes too much to ask, against the lore and other nonsense.

Sounds like some people do definitely want to be able to overgear the whole thing.
=> point 3.

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Fruz wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

And what we ask? An alternative way to get the ascendancy points by just fighting Izaro without ANY of the other rewards. Yes too much to ask, against the lore and other nonsense. I call bullshit. And when bullshit is called, dung beetles arive.

Sounds like some people do definitely want to be able to overgear the whole thing.
=> point 3.

I am a prophet. I am BATMAN also.