The labyrinth is both boring and frustrating

The absolutely worst part is that you are forced to do it for your Ascendancy. I acknowledge that there are people that enjoy the lab and that is perfectly fine, game is for all sorts. But being in mandatory for all players to complete to get the core (now) part of the game is wrong. I am honestly surprised it is not made to work like Atziri content. If someone like to have Enchantments he is free to play it over and over again but why is it so you HAVE to do it? Atziri is completely optional and it works really well, no one is forced to play it, you run it for the goodies. Whole Izaro lab should work on the same principles imo. A part of Wraeclast history that works as a side quest. Something extra for people that enjoy this sort of stuff (and there are many of course and their voices matter!) that isn't required for everyone to complete.

I can't remember who suggested it (reddit) but would getting Ascendancy points for completing Malachai Normal/Cruel/Merc be a better system? Anyways, that is what my thoughts are.
Mad

Ps. I am one of the players that enjoy dynamic gameplay, I am not fan of waiting for traps/doors/lava, flicking switches and going back and forth through the maze. For me it's as the OP said, boring and frustrating. Also tedious.
I AM MAD
ZAP!ZAP!ZAP! ME SOOO WIZZARD!
Finally did the normal difficulty alt lvl 45. Kinda annoying but got my 2 first ascendant points. 6 level later at 51 went back to learn about normal difficulty Labyrinth and decided to full clear. Right before 3rd Izaro fight I activated a dark shrine. Screen froze for a few seconds then I was kicked out of the game with "an unexpected disconnection occurred" message showing on log in screen.... I set my mind up from the beginning that I don't care about any failure. It was just about learning. But being disconnected from a game doing, not mine, that is unacceptable.
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krakerman wrote:


(2) lack of waypoints


Something akin to Bloodborne's lampposts in the chalice dungeons would be nice. I powered through the labs with my Talisman reaver, so it didn't take long once I figured out how the system worked. But with a fresh character doing the lab at the suggested level, I imagine it would be an arduously drawn-out slog.

Imagine doing a five-layer chalice dungeon in BB without savepoints and having to start all the way over if you die. Yuck.
Last edited by 3DNeophyte on Mar 6, 2016, 9:37:15 AM
The_Wuggly_Ump:
Spoiler
"
Background: I'm pretty casual, 90% solo, and I mostly play for the weird, cool, ridiculous, often underpowered builds you can make thanks to weird combinations of skills and junk. I'm not good at this or any other game. In 2000+ hours I've never made it past level 84 because I get bored playing the same character.

So. The labyrinth is awful. It's both boring and frustrating, which is a damn impressive combination. It's boring because:

1, It's way too long, and every area feels the same since all the traps have the same mechanic: wait, then move.

2, The "puzzles" are incredibly simple, you don't actually have to use your brain at all. Which I actually approve of in theory, because who would want to use their brain while playing an ARPG? But of course, if you don't have to think about them, puzzles are entirely pointless.

3, The bosses, which should be a chance to break up the tedium, don't use any new mechanics or particularly original attacks (and attacks are just copy-pasted from previous bosses). There seems to be something going on with Izaro and stuff that spawns around him to click on, but clicking it didn't seem to have any effect, and it definitely didn't have any feedback on what it was supposed to do, so I just attack the guy.

4, Lots of little corridors, traps that slow you down, etc. Everything is designed to make the experience take more time, not by adding content but by making the existing content slower to get through.

It's frustrating because:

1, On a self-found first character in Perandus league I just ain't gonna have the resources to kill the bosses unless I've been lucky or I'm playing a cookie-cutter OP build. Luckily I found a Tabula, so I do enough damage - but they still have vastly more health and defenses than any bosses in normal difficulty, which is frustrating (if you haven't been lucky and/or want to play something unusual) and boring (because whether kiting or facetanking, it just takes too much time).

2, The lab is very uneven in difficulty. Beyond the fact that the entire labyrinth is much more difficult than any other content before maps/Act 4 Merciless, which makes no sense, the Normal lab bosses feel level 40+ because of their DPS, one-shot potential, and damage mitigation, but if you go through it several times in Normal you're instantly overleveling the trash mobs, and they quickly become a total waste of time. Basically, you run through a mess of worthless trash to get to migrants from a higher difficulty.

3, The traps do too much damage on Normal (and probably Cruel, I dunno, I quit after my third or fourth lab attempt). Scaling by health percentage could make sense, but since the game is supposed to be easier on earlier difficulties (one assumes?) it just feels weird, out of place, and, y'know, frustrating.

4, Navigating the traps with PoE's control scheme just feels awful. I mostly just ran through stuff and chugged pots because it's so awkward trying to figure hitboxes and how to dodge a trap when your controlling the character more or less one click at a time. The controls just do not work for this kind of content.

5, Again, starting from nothing, your defense is gonna suck unless you're lucky. I'm at 1k HP and otherwise fairly crap defense, since I haven't found anything decent and most of my build concept's defense comes from my first two Ascendancy points.

I'll lay out my deaths real quick: first time, I died to Izaro's Blood Rage pet; fine, that's on me. Half hour later, I desynced into some traps. Took a break, came back, died to the burning ground trap because I couldn't see where I was supposed to go thanks to the room being too large. Went to bed, woke up, spent an hour going through the lab again, died to Izaro stage 2 one-shotting me. That's three deaths I couldn't predict (why would I expect a Normal boss to one-shot me?) or control, and that's at least an hour and a half of time wasted.

Back to point 5: I shouldn't get one-shotted on Normal. I'm against it in the first place, being able to die instantly without warning is a bad mechanic, but it's not usually something I have to worry about with a bit of preparation, and when it does happen, I don't usually lose much progress. But because this is my first character this league, I have no way of preparing except vastly overleveling the content and coming back - which makes the lab an even bigger waste of time, since I lose out on XP and useful loot. I should also mention that by this point I'm already six levels above the damn place from running it so many times.

6, It punishes players with poor connections. The labyrinth is impossible if you're having an unreliable ping rate. PoE's always been a game I could play casually without worrying about being punished for living in a rural area with only one (awful) ISP, but thanks to point 7 coming up, it's now totally unplayable if my connection's acting up. Luckily this has only happened twice, the first time was the desync death, the second time I just quit the damn thing rather than desync into traps again.

7, This is the big and obvious one: you have to repeat the lab every time you die. This isn't how the rest of the game works, so it's unintuitive, but worse, it's annoying. I honestly can't remember the last time I got angry at a game - I die constantly in just about any game I play, I'm atrocious at video games, but it's been a decade or more since I had to stop playing a game due to being too pissed off to continue. And that's kinda where I am now - I just don't feel the game's worth playing with this content. Getting bored isn't fun, and getting frustrated is even worse, and that's the entirety of my reaction to Ascendancy so far.

I'll probably check up on patches to see if the issue is dealt with, but considering the last boring content introduced (Broken Masters' awful fetch quests) was never fixed, I think I might actually be done with this game. It's very disappointing for me as I've proselytized the game for years to anyone who would listen, but the labyrinth is entirely lacking in everything that made PoE fun and I'm not gonna play a game that isn't fun. I'd just skip the lab, but the whole reason I play is to try weird new builds, and nearly every Ascendancy class has multiple new build-enabling things to try so I'm missing out on a huge amount of diversity by not wanting to slog through the dull obnoxiousness of the lab.

Now that is what I call good feedback. Very detailed, great job!
German saying: Schönheit und Funktionalität in Sekundenschnelle zu ruinieren, ist dem wahren Dilettanten keine Herausforderung!
torturo: "Though, I'm really concerned, knowing by practice the capabilities of the balance team."
top2000: "let me bend your rear for a moment exile"
I have a few things to say about the labyrinth.

1. Cruel Izaro is badly overtuned. I tried Cruel on level, got to Izaro with (I think) 3000 life and 600 mana with MOM, and he smacked me down to 99% dead. When I logged back in, I leveled up to 65. I went back to Cruel labyrinth with 3650 life, 850 mana. Izaro was still smashing me down super low. It feels like he has the numbers of a late Merciless boss.

2. I got super lucky that second run and managed to just barely take down Izaro. I opened a couple of chests, enchanted my gloves with absolute garbage just like in normal, and left. At this point I realized I'd forgotten to click the Ascendancy wall, but I figured that was no big deal. It's not like the game wouldn't give me my two points, right? Well, I don't have those points, and there was no message or anything to prevent me from just walking out. This absolutely sucks, and you need to make it so that we can't skip something that is super easy to skip (it's entirely reasonable for someone not to think "I need to go click on that offscreen wall!"). I tried to beat it again after that dream crush and Izaro's overtunedness caused me to logout to avoid death, since I was cut down to snail speed at 5% life with no flask charges. Sucks all around, and my Templar still doesn't have three totems.

3. It's impossible to use skill or strategy to prevent buffs from passing through Izaro's stages. Both times he started the second round with a golem. I killed the golems, didn't see that any had respawned, and have no clue why this happened. The second time, right before I killed Izaro, one of the statues popped up. Since I can't pick my totem off the ground or pluck my Ball Lightnings out of the air, I was screwed. He started round three with a golem and a statue. Oddly, while I was snail walking late in the fight and .5 seconds away from logging out, I noticed that the golem was gone and there were now two statues. How am I supposed to figure out the mechanics to this fight? This makes no sense to me!

I don't mind the slow pace of the labyrinth. I play the game at a slower pace than a lot of people anyway, so this doesn't interfere with my four hour rush to merciless or anything. I just want Izaro to be tuned to about the same power level as Malachai. Right now he seems much, much worse than Malachai when he first came out, which is just ridiculous. There should also be some way players can be absolutely certain that no buffs will pass between stages. It's completely ridiculous how much we have to rely on pure luck in regards to that. Estimate his life, hope your damage is average, hope no statues stand up, etc. etc.

The labyrinth is just frustrating right now, but it could easily be fun with some balance changes and some tweaks to Izaro's buff system.
To long Boring Frustrating and crap < lybrint
The small trails are fun tough
I do not wanne build new characters / re-roll or even try the LYB on cruel.
Its to god damn boring and frustrating
@dragnar <<< ingame or pm me
1) maybe but did not try him on a clean character

2) valid. this should be granted on entering the 'loot room' and the ascendency altar be MUCH more visible from the get go.

3) totally false. this fight is ALL About strategy and skill. DPS mean little. after you understand how given mechanics work (hover over the non-killable enemies to read their brief description) youll see that for yourself. there is my run posted in feedback - you can see that in action
"
sidtherat wrote:
3) totally false. this fight is ALL About strategy and skill. DPS mean little. after you understand how given mechanics work (hover over the non-killable enemies to read their brief description) youll see that for yourself. there is my run posted in feedback - you can see that in action


I don't think you understood my post. I understand how the statues work (the disabling mechanic, at least. I have no idea why a second one appeared and the golem disappeared after a while in my last fight with Izaro, since two statues were clearly disabled when he left). This doesn't mean that I'm capable of having them disabled 100% of the time when I deal enough damage to Izaro to make him leave. I was very clear in my post on multiple reasons as to why it's impossible for players with any level of skill to be certain they can do this. You can believe you can do it with perfect accuracy, but you'd be wrong.

1. You can't be sure exactly when he'll leave, since you have to estimate where 1/3 of his life is, how much damage you'll do, and so on.

2. Statues can stand back up an instant before he gets to 1/3. There's literally nothing you can do in that case.
+1

please remove this shit.
"
Jennik wrote:
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sidtherat wrote:
3) totally false. this fight is ALL About strategy and skill. DPS mean little. after you understand how given mechanics work (hover over the non-killable enemies to read their brief description) youll see that for yourself. there is my run posted in feedback - you can see that in action


I don't think you understood my post. I understand how the statues work (the disabling mechanic, at least. I have no idea why a second one appeared and the golem disappeared after a while in my last fight with Izaro, since two statues were clearly disabled when he left). This doesn't mean that I'm capable of having them disabled 100% of the time when I deal enough damage to Izaro to make him leave. I was very clear in my post on multiple reasons as to why it's impossible for players with any level of skill to be certain they can do this. You can believe you can do it with perfect accuracy, but you'd be wrong.

1. You can't be sure exactly when he'll leave, since you have to estimate where 1/3 of his life is, how much damage you'll do, and so on.

2. Statues can stand back up an instant before he gets to 1/3. There's literally nothing you can do in that case.


get him close to 1/3, wait for all statues to stand up, click them all in quick succession, 'kill' Izaro. did that several times. the ability to estimate where the 1/3 of this health is is the skill and waiting for all statues to stand up without getting killed is the strategy. this fight is one of the easiest.

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