In US courts there's something referred to as "standing"... and I see this as lacking in all the complaints. Basically, you can't sue someone or something simply because you don't like what they've done. You have to be damaged by it.
Every argument I've seen put forth puts the "damage" on some mythical player. Find me that player who is damaged. Let him make his case. I just don't see that happening. Anyone trading extensively (running a successful shop with frequent trades) has access to premium tabs. They might not use them on their shop account, but definitely use them on their playing account.
If we are going with that argument. You aren't really damaged by it either if GGG sell Shavronne's Wrappings or Mjölner.
In US courts there's something referred to as "standing"... and I see this as lacking in all the complaints. Basically, you can't sue someone or something simply because you don't like what they've done. You have to be damaged by it.
Every argument I've seen put forth puts the "damage" on some mythical player. Find me that player who is damaged. Let him make his case. I just don't see that happening. Anyone trading extensively (running a successful shop with frequent trades) has access to premium tabs. They might not use them on their shop account, but definitely use them on their playing account.
Anybody successfully trading will already do whatever it takes to squeeze advantages out of it.
This also means utilizing third party tools and they offer the same functionality.
The only difference i could come up with between third party trading tools and premium tabs are
-need to tab to price items individually
-slight delay in indexing speed
First one can be argued as an advantage, quite clearly.
The second one also holds that same potential assuming a buyer looks for gear and two people post the exact same potential item for him. However, this point gradually decays as the market has more items available.
So the chances are pretty slim to begin with if we exclude unique items and the advantage erodes over time.
- if we consider unique's, then it becomes visible that unique's are highly desired early on in a league due to the absence of saturation on the market.
This almost indirectly imply's that the second unique, being posted a few minutes later will still be a highly desired item in such a market setting.
So early on, the disadvantage is countered by the market requiring a high volume of them and later on it is eroded by the saturation itself which makes the competing post time irrelevant compared to actual listing price.
At least, that's how far i took this thought experiment. Feel free to poke holes in it though.
Peace,
-Boem-
Nowhere in your reply did you address this issue of standing.
In US courts there's something referred to as "standing"... and I see this as lacking in all the complaints. Basically, you can't sue someone or something simply because you don't like what they've done. You have to be damaged by it.
Every argument I've seen put forth puts the "damage" on some mythical player. Find me that player who is damaged. Let him make his case. I just don't see that happening. Anyone trading extensively (running a successful shop with frequent trades) has access to premium tabs. They might not use them on their shop account, but definitely use them on their playing account.
Anybody successfully trading will already do whatever it takes to squeeze advantages out of it.
This also means utilizing third party tools and they offer the same functionality.
The only difference i could come up with between third party trading tools and premium tabs are
-need to tab to price items individually
-slight delay in indexing speed
First one can be argued as an advantage, quite clearly.
The second one also holds that same potential assuming a buyer looks for gear and two people post the exact same potential item for him. However, this point gradually decays as the market has more items available.
So the chances are pretty slim to begin with if we exclude unique items and the advantage erodes over time.
- if we consider unique's, then it becomes visible that unique's are highly desired early on in a league due to the absence of saturation on the market.
This almost indirectly imply's that the second unique, being posted a few minutes later will still be a highly desired item in such a market setting.
So early on, the disadvantage is countered by the market requiring a high volume of them and later on it is eroded by the saturation itself which makes the competing post time irrelevant compared to actual listing price.
At least, that's how far i took this thought experiment. Feel free to poke holes in it though.
Peace,
-Boem-
Nowhere in your reply did you address this issue of standing.
In US courts there's something referred to as "standing"... and I see this as lacking in all the complaints. Basically, you can't sue someone or something simply because you don't like what they've done. You have to be damaged by it.
Every argument I've seen put forth puts the "damage" on some mythical player. Find me that player who is damaged. Let him make his case. I just don't see that happening. Anyone trading extensively (running a successful shop with frequent trades) has access to premium tabs. They might not use them on their shop account, but definitely use them on their playing account.
Anybody successfully trading will already do whatever it takes to squeeze advantages out of it.
This also means utilizing third party tools and they offer the same functionality.
The only difference i could come up with between third party trading tools and premium tabs are
-need to tab to price items individually
-slight delay in indexing speed
First one can be argued as an advantage, quite clearly.
The second one also holds that same potential assuming a buyer looks for gear and two people post the exact same potential item for him. However, this point gradually decays as the market has more items available.
So the chances are pretty slim to begin with if we exclude unique items and the advantage erodes over time.
- if we consider unique's, then it becomes visible that unique's are highly desired early on in a league due to the absence of saturation on the market.
This almost indirectly imply's that the second unique, being posted a few minutes later will still be a highly desired item in such a market setting.
So early on, the disadvantage is countered by the market requiring a high volume of them and later on it is eroded by the saturation itself which makes the competing post time irrelevant compared to actual listing price.
At least, that's how far i took this thought experiment. Feel free to poke holes in it though.
Peace,
-Boem-
Nowhere in your reply did you address this issue of standing.
I was commenting on your "need premium tabs to run a successful shop" or by extension be successful in the economy in PoE part.
It's a fallacy to think this is required for somebody genuinely interested in playing the market.
Peace,
-Boem-
edit : perhaps i should have bolted that part, since i agree mostly with your post, just not with the assumption your making there.
I run a successful shop without any tools at all, manually listing everything in all league's so far.
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
Last edited by Boem#2861 on Mar 3, 2016, 11:16:44 AM
so basically people are so entitled about themselves they don't want to spend 1$ (because it's what it cost) to buy a premium stash.
Where exactly can I buy this deal for only $1?
Seems to me that you can minimum use $5.
Too all who's defending what GGG did:
As you can see, I used money on the game, I have stash tabs (premium, all of them).
Yet, I'm disgusted by this approach on the "new trading system," which is just a rehash of Acquisition, but probably worse in every single way. Now they also demand people to use money to use a feature, such as fucking trading.
I'm against fucking up those who truly wish to stay F2P, heck I'm even against Stash Tabs in general, I think it's stupid to put something which is OBIOUSLY a P2W thing to have in a game you dare to label as "F2P".
In fact, I demand GGG remove that label with this trade system.
Participated in the working of the Dyadus Avatar of Fire Templar:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/896505
Last edited by Derpey#6519 on Mar 3, 2016, 11:20:17 AM
I guess seeing that I have 36 Premium tabs then I have paid to win 36 times!!!!!!!
Winner winner chicken dinner.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, what do I get when I win again?
This also is a very good point.
You did win something otherwise you wouldn't have bought 36 of them. There is no incentive to purchase 36 dragon fireball effects for example. And this kind of ethical slight p2w nudge to purchase more is great for both parties because GGG gets a dependable source of revenue and you didn't purchase such a large advantage that you feel bad about it.
It would be interesting to know what percent of their profits comes from stash boosts just for fun.
In US courts there's something referred to as "standing"... and I see this as lacking in all the complaints. Basically, you can't sue someone or something simply because you don't like what they've done. You have to be damaged by it.
Every argument I've seen put forth puts the "damage" on some mythical player. Find me that player who is damaged. Let him make his case. I just don't see that happening. Anyone trading extensively (running a successful shop with frequent trades) has access to premium tabs. They might not use them on their shop account, but definitely use them on their playing account.
First its not correct to apply a principle like this in here . Our relationship with GGG does not and can not work with the same principles justice has nor can they have the same rules and demands to be considered healthy and "good" but if you insist let me remind you of something called the weight of principles from Dworkin . As he said principles can be good or bad depending by the situation and another contradicting principle can "over-ride" them. I can very well argue that we have to deal with another principle here : Preventing is better than punishing .
I know that being a forum veteran Shag you want to use the good old "you have not even played the game yet" argument but it can not work. We always try to prevent something if we logically think that it may lead to harmful consequences .We can judge if a decision is good or bad even before we try it on our skin.
Now the second mistake you are making is assuming wrongly that only people with a lot of premium stash tabs can trade efficently.The thing is you are not doing a good job in giving the arguments on why you think that.Do you really want to get into that argument? Are you sure that you are right? You seem to have the opinion that you get really rich in PoE by having a billion stash tabs with stuff in it. Let me tell you , if you need that many stash tabs , you are a bad player.
THere is a limit to how much good loot that has more value than the time you spend trading it you can get. If you know how to trade and are persistant enough , the items of value that you have should not stay for long in your stash. Now i admit it , i am just talking about temporary leagues here and i cannot talk about standard , but for me 10 stash tabs have always been enough for making money because its like that that you really make money. Flipping and farming valuable items , not 1 chaos junk. I have always been rich enough to buy everything i wanted , but wait maybe you mean standard kind of rich. Here comes the third problem , you are just taking in consideration one fraction of the players. Maybe standard players do need that many tabs to have tabs full of exalts , but do the temporary league people need that much?
Yes this premium tab advantage becomes bigger and bigger of a problem the more you trade and the more you want but do you know the cap Shag? To get the first 100 character you need a good build to begin with , lets take an example and say that to get a good build you need 20 ex. 20 ex here is all someone effectively needs . Now consider that you have to sell a few good items to cover that cost , lets say 15 at an avarage price of 1 ex each making up for most of the cost and leaving the other part to just farming and services. Now lets logically assume he does not find them in quick succession . 30 minutes for each item to be available to poe.trade is 450 minutes , thats 7 hours and a half. This player is 7 hours and a half behind reaching his goal and effectively race against the premium dude that has the same build and the same time and the same knowledge.
This was purely hypothetical but was aimed to be as logical as possible . We did not even include the other benefits of the new premium stash tab and we still came up with ~7 hour difference. Its just an example to say that even with lower usage of trading , the advantage still matters , it still adds up and gives a noticable benefit. 100 is not even the only place where you can compete . Look at the new labyrynth leaderboards , even if its only for one day , the dude with no premium stash tabs loses enough time from trading for a good build that can hope to race compared to the premium one , that gets translated to 1 lost unique jewel. You always lose something , it does not matter how big of an investment you need in trading but it always stays revelant , that something surely gets more and more important the more you climb up but a simple principle still hold up: Ingame all players should be equal. Otherwise you just are not a fair f2p game.
Edit: trying to fix some of the most glaring grammar mistakes
Last edited by MadBro_#7856 on Mar 3, 2016, 11:40:47 AM
so basically people are so entitled about themselves they don't want to spend 1$ (because it's what it cost) to buy a premium stash.
Where exactly can I buy this deal for only $1?
Seems to me that you can minimum use $5.
Too all who's defending what GGG did:
As you can see, I used money on the game, I have stash tabs (premium, all of them).
Yet, I'm disgusted by this approach on the "new trading system," which is just a rehash of Acquisition, but probably worse in every single way. Now they also demand people to use money to use a feature, such as fucking trading.
I'm against fucking up those who truly wish to stay F2P, heck I'm even against Stash Tabs in general, I think it's stupid to put something which is OBIOUSLY a P2W thing to have in a game you dare to label as "F2P".
In fact, I demand GGG remove that label with this trade system.
This trade system is joke even pepole like me who spend 25$ for MTX and i dont buy tabs because i dont need it cannot use new trade system even if support little GGG...
