Why people hates RNG?

Studies in psychology shows that we (humans) tend to react stronger emotionally to negatives experiences than positive ones. In other words we tend to forget when we are lucky and react stronger to the instances in which we are unlucky.

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vio wrote:

the random outcome of rewards:

players who can sink massive time into the game hate it because it lowers their "rewards/time"-ratio.

casual players love it because it grants them rewarding luck streaks from time to time which weren't possible in a game with linear "time investment/reward"-structure.

rng balances the rewards for both groups and is the better alternative to somehow limit the access to the game or lower rewards after some play time.

 So then GGG would do well for themselves (and us) by incrementally adding in mechanisms to allow us to craft our gear up over a longer time (year or so) instead of just this:

Notice how all these rarer currencies all have the word random (or a form of it) in their description. I don't believe that GGG even cares to want to add any function to PoE that would allow us to incrementally improve a weapon or other gear over time (aka REAL CRAFTING). That would lead to more power creep and other problems. But just moving sideways with more skill gems (what... more skill gems... right-o) is not good. GGG, keep on clicking the poor old RNG sheep until it explodes in your face (you really should get that reference).

 As I see it (from a veteran casual player perspective) the heavy over use of RNG in PoE is not so much of a frustrating problem as is the lack of these gambling... cough... crafting orbs in sufficient quantity to throw at our gear that we want to improve the quality of. What's worse, GGG set's these "crafting" orbs drop rates so low (another RNG drop rate limitation) that even with the function of these orbs we can't do much simply because we don't have enough. Let's see, I could need upwards of 1500 fusings to RNG roll a 6L weapon or chest, yet in all the 3+ years I've casually played PoE (which I guesstimate is in the 2000 to 3000 hours of time) I've never ever gotten more than a few 100 fusings to drop for me. GGG can say "we did that to encourage trading for fusings" and that is true if PoE had a decent asynchronous trade function (another topic talked about to death with nothing good coming out all our verbiage) then the need to get more of these crafting orbs to drop would be reduced, but Trade Chat sucks donkey and thus we are all (except maybe grind time unlimited elites) perpetually and forever starved of the needed orbs to feed the RNG grinder (sink hole) in our hopes of a better result (5L or 6L, better gear mods, chancing a unique, etc.).

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Tanakeah wrote:

RNG by itself isn't a problem. Layer upon layer of RNG that more often than not dictates even the basic usage of an item (getting proper color, links, and sockets, not even counting stats and type), or whether something that could be an upgrade actually isn't. Applies to a few other things in this game, but too much layering isn't that great for me in the long run.

False, because butterfly effect. Even a single instance of RNG immediately layers all subsequent events. The only way to prevent RNG layering is not to have it at all.

No, it's not the only way, and GGG has provided ways to get around the RNG via deterministic crafting with sockets and links, although you can't craft a guaranteed outcome for socket colors when it comes to things beyond three sockets. However, if you could, then the only real RNG left for rolling an armour piece would be what the stats are, and therefore would only be one layer of RNG to contend with when making an item if you followed the deterministic route. So no, not the only way and really makes me sigh when terms like 'butterfly effect' get thrown around as such when other methods like what I posted can be used, tweaked, and refined to provide players a way around that.

Point is, regardless of the semantic and hair-splitting we will likely do (as we'll never seem to agree on this, so how about cutting it off at the pass and agree to disagree), there is too much layering of RNG in the game, and it can be lessened to still provide some RNG, but not be so heavy a factor in character progression amongst other things.

some people have not yet allowed RNGesus into their hearts

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vio wrote:

the random outcome of rewards:

players who can sink massive time into the game hate it because it lowers their "rewards/time"-ratio.

casual players love it because it grants them rewarding luck streaks from time to time which weren't possible in a game with linear "time investment/reward"-structure.

rng balances the rewards for both groups and is the better alternative to somehow limit the access to the game or lower rewards after some play time.

RNG isn't random, it is more like a variety of result. Causal doesn't have better "luck" than any average Joe. It is more like a bell curve, where there are outliers on both end. RNG is both a blessing and a curse. There are some people who are "lucky" and people who are "unlucky". It is how the system works. Beginner's luck is more like confirmation bias, a beginner outstanding performance are remembered and those who don't are not.

RNG is often associated with low probability. People are often looking for item with ridiculous low probability of dropping and more likely than not it doesn't drop. It is a negative reinforcement that the item doesn't drop or the drop rate is terrible. After some time, you see people are farming currency with higher probability of dropping to buy something with very low probability of dropping from someone else. It is positive reinforcement that trading is a better mean of getting that item than farming it yourself.

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Arrowneous wrote:

GGG would do well for themselves (and us) by incrementally adding in mechanisms to allow us to craft our gear up over a longer time (year or so) instead of just this:

those currencies you listed (except maybe the chaos orb) are endgame currencies used by endgame players only.
crafting in this game is only done endgame, the normal game just consists of finding items, identify and master craft if applicable.
so crafting is an endgame problem and the game wants those players to play as long as possible.

if you introduce mechanisms which reliably craft gear, nolifers have finished this challenge in a week while casuals need months or years to get anywhere (see eternal orb). any deterministic outcome favours those who play alot but the game also wants casual players playing it because those who work and have a life also have alot of money to spend on support.

i like this game because even playing it a bit more enthusiastic i get nowhere fast. i'm playing it for over 4 years now and haven't even beaten atziri. am i missing something? yes, i still would really like to get there playing a temp league by not playing the flavour of the month build.

being successful in a game like poe is kind of easy (just sink time in it, trade alot and use overpowered gear and skills).
but i don't want success, i want to play it long term without burning out but having alot of fun which is quite a challenge.

with a deterministic crafting outcome i would have beaten the game in permanent leagues long ago.

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Qiu_Qiu wrote:

In that specific case, I believe a lot more players would be willing to attempt to craft, as they would be able to get ever closer to their end-goal, in a visible fashion.

but wouldn't that in some form:
1. steal the fun and glory of 6-linking an item in 30 tries, when you planned for 1500 tries or something?
2. prevent the casual player from even trying because they know for sure that it's gonna take them 3+ years to complete.

With luck the casual player can have hope too. Hope keeps people engaged.

I was just wondering yesterday how many casuals there are that maybe found a Mirror of Kalandra on their first 80+-character (no idea where that stuff drops, sry) and just mirrored their current weapon because they play dual-wield and know nothing of any probabilities.

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Antaiseito wrote:

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Qiu_Qiu wrote:

In that specific case, I believe a lot more players would be willing to attempt to craft, as they would be able to get ever closer to their end-goal, in a visible fashion.

but wouldn't that in some form:
1. steal the fun and glory of 6-linking an item in 30 tries, when you planned for 1500 tries or something?
2. prevent the casual player from even trying because they know for sure that it's gonna take them 3+ years to complete.

With luck the casual player can have hope too. Hope keeps people engaged.

I was just wondering yesterday how many casuals there are that maybe found a Mirror of Kalandra on their first 80+-character (no idea where that stuff drops, sry) and just mirrored their current weapon because they play dual-wield and know nothing of any probabilities.

I wonder why people think RNG benefit the causal. Finding a Mirror of Kalandra by a causal is still improbable although possible. Hardcore players still have higher probability of finding Mirror of Kalandra just because they have higher attempts of rolling the dice. For every "lucky" causal you have, you probably have an "unlucky" one. RNG can be an equalizer when it roll your way. However, it also have the effect of making things worse when it is already terrible.

People swimming in exalts and Mirror of Kalandra probably isn't your causal.

I have decided to fully embrace RNG to the extent that the developers have.


When I think about supporting GGG financially I pull out my Yahtzee dice and give them a roll.

If I roll 6's on all 5 of the dice I take that as a sign from RNGeesus that I should make a contribution. It's liberating.