Game needs Eternals back (and here's why) |Petition|

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goetzjam wrote:

(in all serious I'm just reading, no point on me repeating for the 10000000000x time, we all know my position and a few others in this thread)

At this point in time? Yes.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Without them 5T1 and 6T1 are out of reach for even the most dedicated players.

I disagree.

Without eternals, and thus with current master crafting, 5T1 items are actually possible, with a lot of dedication, to more players.

With eternals, and thus with the inevitable changes to master crafting that would accompany them, 5T1 and 6T1 items are reasonably trivial, but to less players, with less dedication.


I guess it boils down to your definitions of dedication and trivial.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Without them 5T1 and 6T1 are out of reach for even the most dedicated players.

I disagree.

Without eternals, and thus with current master crafting, 5T1 items are actually possible, with a lot of dedication, to more players.

With eternals, and thus with the inevitable changes to master crafting that would accompany them, 5T1 and 6T1 items are reasonably trivial, but to less players, with less dedication.

The items I'm most familiar with are ES shields, Hubrises, and Vaal Regalias. All of these items require 3 prefixes to be considered gfg. Suffixes don't matter as much. Right now the best way to craft them is chaos spam. Meaning that re-introducing eternals would make those easier to to craft. Masters don't help when you need 3 prefixes.

With non-hybrid weapons you just need two prefixes, and the rest can be master crafted. So yeah there eternals don't help as much. However I can't think of a scenario where eternals don't make getting 3 good prefixes easier, and in the current affix system prefixes matter most.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Master crafting isn't a replacement for eternals if you want 5T1, or 3+1 T1. The reward:cost ratio isn't good enough.

Then why don't you argue for a better cost:reward ratio for master crafting, e.g. by making the desired affixes more likely to spawn? With Eternals removed, that could be safely done without flooding the server with perfect items.

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Char1983 wrote:

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Master crafting isn't a replacement for eternals if you want 5T1, or 3+1 T1. The reward:cost ratio isn't good enough.

Then why don't you argue for a better cost:reward ratio for master crafting, e.g. by making the desired affixes more likely to spawn? With Eternals removed, that could be safely done without flooding the server with perfect items.

While that could be used as a solution with an equivalent return, it would also increase the baseline average power (as you demonstrated). Also eternals are just cool, make the player feel awesome and powerful, and require skill to use. If you have two alternatives for implementing a mechanic but one is cool and a little tricky, whereas the other is hidden and unmanagable, the fun one should be used.

Before you raise your argument about "flooding the server with perfect items," a) why should it matter (please argue based on how it will affect the enjoyment of the game for players crafting those items and other players who you think will be affected) and b) we don't have any perfect items right now.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Without them 5T1 and 6T1 are out of reach for even the most dedicated players.

I disagree.

Without eternals, and thus with current master crafting, 5T1 items are actually possible, with a lot of dedication, to more players.

With eternals, and thus with the inevitable changes to master crafting that would accompany them, 5T1 and 6T1 items are reasonably trivial, but to less players, with less dedication.

The items I'm most familiar with are ES shields, Hubrises, and Vaal Regalias. All of these items require 3 prefixes to be considered gfg. Suffixes don't matter as much. Right now the best way to craft them is chaos spam. Meaning that re-introducing eternals would make those easier to to craft. Masters don't help when you need 3 prefixes.

With non-hybrid weapons you just need two prefixes, and the rest can be master crafted. So yeah there eternals don't help as much. However I can't think of a scenario where eternals don't make getting 3 good prefixes easier, and in the current affix system prefixes matter most.

Oh they absolutely do make it easier.

I was challenging your statement "Without them 5T1 and 6T1 are out of reach for even the most dedicated players."

I would never trivialise crafting by just buying eternals from the peons that find them, with exalts that I also obtain from others who found them. If I used eternals it would be at the rate of 1 every 2-3,000 hours, such was the drop rate.

With eternals removed and master crafting as it is, I can craft 3T1 prefix items via alt regal exalt, and then use masters to exalt/clean/exalt/exalt/clean/etc and ultimately achieve a 5T1 item far quicker than getting an item to that prefix stage then only ever exalting every 2-3,000 hours when an eternal drops.

Yes, it's because I won't simply trade, yes I see that as trivialising, yes I think it takes more dedication to craft for me in the current system than it does/did for you in the former system or rather the system you want back.

Food for thought; the current system that I'm saying I can actually craft 5T1 items in without trading is the system that you are saying 5T1 items are out of reach for even the most dedicated players.

I'm challenging just how dedicated these players are. I mean, you(?) don't have the dedication to craft in the current system, with exalts obtained trivially through trade, while I have the dedication to do it with purely self found orbs.


Also, I think you are really missing out on not alt regal exalt crafting ES prefixes. The pool is not huge.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

With eternals removed and master crafting as it is, I can craft 3T1 prefix items via alt regal exalt, and then use masters to exalt/clean/exalt/exalt/clean/etc and ultimately achieve a 5T1 item far quicker than getting an item to that prefix stage then only ever exalting every 2-3,000 hours when an eternal drops.

Yes, it's because I won't simply trade, yes I see that as trivialising, yes I think it takes more dedication to craft for me in the current system than it does/did for you in the former system or rather the system you want back.

Food for thought; the current system that I'm saying I can actually craft 5T1 items in without trading is the system that you are saying 5T1 items are out of reach for even the most dedicated players.

Since you seem to be agreeing for people who do trade eternals make 3 prefix items much easier, let me humor your self-found argument.

First of all, since July 20th, have you crafted any T1, T1, T3+ 3 prefix item or T1 T2+ prefix, T1 T2+ suffix items on T1 bases? If yes, how? If not, why not?

Second, eternals can save over 100exalts per attempt when going from 4 affixes to 5 affixes (and over 1000 exalts per attempt when going from 5 to 6). For example if you have a wand with T1 flat, T1 %, T2 crit chance and T2 atk speed. Your chance of hitting better than T2crit+T2 aspd is like 4%, 4% each. Let's say they're 7% each after blocking. So you have a 0.49% chance to hit both. At 4ex per try you're gonna need more than 800ex to improve beyond your T2/T2. With eternals you master craft the first T1/T2 suffix, costing about 1/0.14x3ex=21ex. And then you have to et/ex you're 2nd suffix, 7% at 56ex per try would mean 800ex. Whereas with eternals = 4ex, the cost would be 71ex. So 800ex in the current system vs 92ex with eternals.

Ok... so maybe self found players can craft faster without eternals, but anyone who can get eternals for less than 50ex each would be better off with them. And I don't think you can call someone who can acquire 92ex in a temp league undedicated. Whereas 800ex is just pure masochistic top 0.0001%.

Problem with alt regal exalting for prefixes is that you have to go through suffixes first. But I might try it.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

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TheAnuhart wrote:

With eternals removed and master crafting as it is, I can craft 3T1 prefix items via alt regal exalt, and then use masters to exalt/clean/exalt/exalt/clean/etc and ultimately achieve a 5T1 item far quicker than getting an item to that prefix stage then only ever exalting every 2-3,000 hours when an eternal drops.

Yes, it's because I won't simply trade, yes I see that as trivialising, yes I think it takes more dedication to craft for me in the current system than it does/did for you in the former system or rather the system you want back.

Food for thought; the current system that I'm saying I can actually craft 5T1 items in without trading is the system that you are saying 5T1 items are out of reach for even the most dedicated players.

Since you seem to be agreeing for people who do trade eternals make 3 prefix items much easier, let me humor your self-found argument.

First of all, since July 20th, have you crafted any T1, T1, T3+ 3 prefix item or T1 T2+ prefix, T1 T2+ suffix items on T1 bases? If yes, how? If not, why not?

Second, eternals can save over 100exalts per attempt when going from 4 affixes to 5 affixes (and over 1000 exalts per attempt when going from 5 to 6). For example if you have a wand with T1 flat, T1 %, T2 crit chance and T2 atk speed. Your chance of hitting better than T2crit+T2 aspd is like 4%, 4% each. Let's say they're 7% each after blocking. So you have a 0.49% chance to hit both. At 4ex per try you're gonna need more than 800ex to improve beyond your T2/T2. With eternals you master craft the first T1/T2 suffix, costing about 1/0.14x3ex=21ex. And then you have to et/ex you're 2nd suffix, 7% at 56ex per try would mean 800ex. Whereas with eternals = 4ex, the cost would be 71ex. So 800ex in the current system vs 92ex with eternals.

Ok... so maybe self found players can craft faster without eternals, but anyone who can get eternals for less than 50ex each would be better off with them. And I don't think you can call someone who can acquire 92ex in a temp league undedicated. Whereas 800ex is just pure masochistic top 0.0001%.

Problem with alt regal exalting for prefixes is that you have to go through suffixes first. But I might try it.

"but anyone who can get eternals for less than 50ex each would be better off with them"

:D see, that pretty much shows how GGG balanced eternals, naively, and which didn't work.

Eternals dropped at a rate of ~1:50 exalts. But they can't make them sell for 50 exalts.


As for crafts..

These are my current sink, waiting for 1 more ex to reroll suffixes. Crafted from white.


Others in the queue that I may or may not proceed with


They are scattered all over, several items I'll have forgotten about until I search for my next project.

I put 10,800 alts through a harby 2 days ago. But I'm only ever going to be fully invested in 1 item at a time until it is done and that takes a long, long time.

Oh, previous craft

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MatrixFactor wrote:

While that could be used as a solution with an equivalent return, it would also increase the baseline average power (as you demonstrated). Also eternals are just cool, make the player feel awesome and powerful, and require skill to use. If you have two alternatives for implementing a mechanic but one is cool and a little tricky, whereas the other is hidden and unmanagable, the fun one should be used.

Before you raise your argument about "flooding the server with perfect items," a) why should it matter (please argue based on how it will affect the enjoyment of the game for players crafting those items and other players who you think will be affected) and b) we don't have any perfect items right now.

So would it be bad if the baseline average power would rise? Have you looked recently at Harbinger bows in the "medium" range (5-40 exalt)? They are pretty much all multimodded, no other way to get them. And the best Harbinger I dropped in a while (which I vendored in the end) gave me less than half the DPS my current bow gives me, and that one gives me less than half the DPS a mirror bow would give me. That is kind of extreme, don't you think?

Also, any crafting method (master crafting, master scouring and re-exalting, Eternals) will deviate the power of items from a Gauss curve and give the top end of the distribution a longer tail (until you hit the "wall" of perfection). Because you don't craft to get shit, you craft to get GG items.

Now is Eternal crafting more fun? No idea, I have never had an Eternal (I joined in about April 2015). Does it require more skill? Actually, well, not really. Know what you aim for, Eternal, Exalt, if not desired outcome, rinse/repeat. You can get to perfection, so you just go for perfection. With master scouring and re-Exalting, you will have to make more choices because you probably are not aiming for perfection to begin with.

Adding another T1 mod with an Eternal is pretty much always the same cost (not exactly, but close). 4T1->5T1 will cost you as much as 5T1->6T1. Which is the real crux, it makes the last step comparably easy (as you have also calculated).

Now, is that bad? Well, perfect items can be seen as good or bad, it doesn't matter. It is true though that perfect items that can be infinitely cloned are bad. And it seems like GGG doesn't want us to create perfect items. It is a philosophical debate. However, to answer your last question, if Eternals result in the affix pool being artificially diluted to make Eternal crafting harder, the average player is severely impacted, and that is just not good.

Personally, I won't really mind all that much if Eternals come back. However, Mirrors should go then (or be modified to add the "mirrored" property to both items). And Eternals should then probably be more common. I still think the "no Eternal" solution is better, though.

Anuhart: that you're trying to argue that your approach is a good reason for why nothing needs to change is, frankly, bizarre. Your argument is, quite simply: "if i can put in 12,000 hours and get some good shit, anyone can! what are they whining about!" Throw in a "back in my day we had real gamers" and we're set.

You're a point of data and your views are now quite clearly known, but you're also an extreme outlier. The confluence of lifestyle, mentality etc that you have do not remotely occur often. Take that as a compliment if you will, but also consider where you sit in the scheme of things. As you know, you're not what this game or perhaps even any game is designed around!