Game needs Eternals back (and here's why) |Petition|

"

Melpheos wrote:

With mirrors, ONE perfect rolled item kills the crafting for this item

Agreed.

But what if there aren't any perfectly rolled items?

I always wonder what these mirror makers are doing with their tens of thousands of exalts? I wonder how RMT sites have tens of thousands of exalts for sale? things that make you go hmmm.

Anyway I'd remove mirrors entirely and keep eternals and drop them at a exalts rate too. The best items should be unique, one of a kind, not mirrors.

If there aren't perfect rares, Mirror-service providers both have limited income (some Mirror holders wait until a better craft comes out) and something to spend their Mirror-service income on (an even better craft).

Simply put, Mirrors work and are an effective incentive for crafting in an enrollment without perfect rares.

But in an economy without Mirrors, the incentive to craft is little to none. Crafting an item when a better one might become available for sale negates all investment in crafting, because items always sell for less than their average craft cost.

The economy depends on Mirrors to drive currency sinks. Mirrors depend on perfect rares not existing. Therefore, the economy depends on perfect rares not existing.

The only solution to this Eternal mess in Standard, without changing Mirror functionality, is affix power creep. Unfortunately, even without Eternals, occasional affix power creep will be necessary to preserve the economy.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Mirroring both items on Mirror use. I still have concerns, because it's inevitable that the trade value of both items combined will still be less than the cost to both craft and Mirror the item, but it might be enough that Mirrors encourage this cost to be split between two different players. Although that might not be enough to incentive trade. Tricky problem.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

But in an economy without Mirrors, the incentive to craft is little to none. Crafting an item when a better one might become available for sale negates all investment in crafting, because items always sell for less than their average craft cost.

The economy depends on Mirrors to drive currency sinks. Mirrors depend on perfect rares not existing. Therefore, the economy depends on perfect rares not existing.

People still craft oO ... maybe not to absolute perfection atm... but they still craft. And a mirror isn't the incentive for everybody to craft. And PoE isn't the first game ever to give someone an incentive to craft just because they were the first one to introduce a mirror. oO

'economy depends on perfect rares not existing' is a world we don't live in, now 'we' have to find solutions.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

But in an economy without Mirrors, the incentive to craft is little to none. Crafting an item when a better one might become available for sale negates all investment in crafting, because items always sell for less than their average craft cost.

Well, that is true for the top crafters. For mostly everyone else, the incentive to craft is little to none WITH mirrors. Why? Because mirrors put an artificial upper limit on the price of a (perfect) item. This drives down the prices of the "half-as-good" items as well. Combine that with the dilution of the affix pool, and you are in the situation where whenever you craft, you lose money.

Now I am pretty sure that you think "you do that anyways". However, that is not true. In Standard, the cheapest 6l Voll's Protector is 14 Exalt (it used to be 18 a few days ago, not sure what happened). Voll's unlinked is vendor trash. For 14 Exalt, you can buy 1134 Fusings right now, with a bit of waiting probably more. That is close to the amount of Fusings you will need to 6l (and you can sell off 5l Volls you hit on the way if you want). The price is actually rather close to the (average) crafting costs.

Not true for rares. If you would right now (no Eternals) craft that 500 DPS bow, and spend 200 Exalt on doing so, how much could you sell it for? 200 Exalt? Probably not. Because for 300, you get a mirror bow.

So essentially, with the mirror bases and mirrors existing, you are completely disincentivizing (is that a word?) mid-tier crafting. There are very few crafts that are actually somewhat worth doing, and they mostly rely on multimod mastercrafting.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Mirroring both items on Mirror use. I still have concerns, because it's inevitable that the trade value of both items combined will still be less than the cost to both craft and Mirror the item, but it might be enough that Mirrors encourage this cost to be split between two different players. Although that might not be enough to incentive trade. Tricky problem.

That is a good question. If there were no mirror bows on the market, and the best bow on the market was a 550 DPS Harbinger, with the second best at 530 DPS, how much would the best bow on the market cost? A mirror? Two? 1000 Exalt? Remember that people were willing to pay a mirror +200 Exalt for the new mirror bow, even though it is like what, 6% better than the old one?

Scrotie, let's assume

-mirrors now both apply the "mirrored" status to original and copy

Do you think an increase in exalt and mirror drop-rate is required then?

My reasoning for this :

If this change would ever happen, it also imply's socket colors are fixed in place upon mirroring, which will surely limit the mirroring service to top-tier weapons but not to "perfect weapons".

I believe people with "perfect weapons" would rather enjoy them themselves for years to come, which locking socket colors given the nature of PoE would prevent.

As such, your issue with "perfect weapons existing" would be fixed since mirroring would no longer revolve around their existence.

I then think, since a mirror would only allow two copy's of the same "top tier" craft, an increase in crafting potential is desired and recommended for the system.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

If there aren't perfect rares, Mirror-service providers both have limited income (some Mirror holders wait until a better craft comes out) and something to spend their Mirror-service income on (an even better craft).

Simply put, Mirrors work and are an effective incentive for crafting in an enrollment without perfect rares.

But in an economy without Mirrors, the incentive to craft is little to none. Crafting an item when a better one might become available for sale negates all investment in crafting, because items always sell for less than their average craft cost.

The economy depends on Mirrors to drive currency sinks. Mirrors depend on perfect rares not existing. Therefore, the economy depends on perfect rares not existing.

The only solution to this Eternal mess in Standard, without changing Mirror functionality, is affix power creep. Unfortunately, even without Eternals, occasional affix power creep will be necessary to preserve the economy.

Cool theory. The problem is that mirrors almost never get used in temp leagues because of how rare they are and how powerful eternals were in standard.

So as is, mirrors provide no incentive to craft without eternals.

In a perfect world eternals would never have been introduced, and your theory would hold. But in our world they were, and now with their botched removal your theory is void.

In our world mirrors provide no incentive for crafting unless you also have eternals (and something worth using the eternals on). If either a) eternals were simply returned or b) eternals were returned but mirrors removed we would more incentive to craft beyond 4T1. This is definitely true in temp leagues, and eventually would be true in standard. The reasoning is simple, eternals allow you to get better results per time invested. Without them 5T1 and 6T1 are out of reach for even the most dedicated players.

Um, do you not understand what power creep is?

Also, at this point I'm just discussing Mirrors. I've already covered why, unless your goal is the creation of perfect items, master crafting replaces Eternals. As far as I'm concerned, the Eternal topic is done, and the answer is never.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Um, do you not understand what power creep is?

Also, at this point I'm just discussing Mirrors. I've already covered why, unless your goal is the creation of perfect items, master crafting replaces Eternals. As far as I'm concerned, the Eternal topic is done, and the answer is never.

SmcB is done time to packup the bags and go home boys


(in all serious I'm just reading, no point on me repeating for the 10000000000x time, we all know my position and a few others in this thread)

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Um, do you not understand what power creep is?

Also, at this point I'm just discussing Mirrors. I've already covered why, unless your goal is the creation of perfect items, master crafting replaces Eternals. As far as I'm concerned, the Eternal topic is done, and the answer is never.

Dude, you dodge all the hard questions I raise against your points (like how do your theories improve the enjoyment of the game for the players who would actually be the ones affected by mirror/eternal changes) and you ask me whether I know what power creep is? Anyways, 80% of 120 is still less than 99% of 100, and the new affixes introduced aren't 120, they're more like 102.

Master crafting isn't a replacement for eternals if you want 5T1, or 3+1 T1. The reward:cost ratio isn't good enough.