Game needs Eternals back (and here's why) |Petition|

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davidnn5 wrote:

Anuhart: that you're trying to argue that your approach is a good reason for why nothing needs to change is, frankly, bizarre. Your argument is, quite simply: "if i can put in 12,000 hours and get some good shit, anyone can! what are they whining about!" Throw in a "back in my day we had real gamers" and we're set.

You're a point of data and your views are now quite clearly known, but you're also an extreme outlier. The confluence of lifestyle, mentality etc that you have do not remotely occur often. Take that as a compliment if you will, but also consider where you sit in the scheme of things. As you know, you're not what this game or perhaps even any game is designed around!

There's plenty that needs to change.

And back in my day we had real game devs.

I think nearly every person here is overestimating the power of eternals. I used hundreds of eternals on a sword and was never able to finish it. If I used a thousand more I still might not have finished it. The reality is infinite eternals still doesn't guarantee a perfect 6t1 item. Saying it made crafting too easy is not true because there still was not a surefire way to make a perfect item. You may never get the roll you need.

On top of that, the rarity and cost was massive. If I used 350 eternals that is likely the equivalent of around 1000 serious players combining their 'eternal drops' to make an item and still being unsuccessful. Maybe that will put it in perspective for some of you?

Checking poe.trade puts things enough into perspective for me.

Gave up crating GG item long ago, rolling new build seems a lot more fun for me. I have partially strip my 95.

I sinked like ~2400-2600 alts on a ilvl 79 5s5l Harbinger that I self found, in hope to craft a decent bow. I dont even get a single +% physical roll that is more than 100% once. Rage quit it & vendor the bow. that money I could have easily pick a decent 5L 350+ pdps bow out of so many choices in poe.trade



Would have yolo craft ex this armor above 4T1, if I can fall back with eternal, u know what? Forget it. It could have been worst than 67% crafted, it might turn out to be a crap % evade mod or some other crap.

Better mastercraft it and forget it. The difference between this and the GG mirror armor? probably the mirror one have >2 times the evades. What it translate when u wear it? a couple % of evades that wouldnt make a difference. I wear Kaom heart b4 this, it was 36% evade attack, So what 900 evades got me? 43%. I dont feel much more evading than b4, not with how weak evasion is now. I doubt the mirror armor will make much difference. Simply isnt worth it. Cant beat the boss with lots of physical attack? use that money roll another build for it.

u know....they could have just make eternal stop working with any newer higher tier mod rolls & weapon(or tier zero) & Intro a higher tier weapon/mod & make the old mirror gear obsolete.

Instead of doing that, they opt to flood the mod pool to make rolling good mod much harder, which screwing over 99% players and help the 1% who manage to make it b4 the change.

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trav_dawg wrote:

On top of that, the rarity and cost was massive. If I used 350 eternals that is likely the equivalent of around 1000 serious players combining their 'eternal drops' to make an item and still being unsuccessful. Maybe that will put it in perspective for some of you?

But that's precisely the point, lol.

They were never expected or designed to be used that way. It was totally naive of GGG to expect they wouldn't be, they thought for some reason that making them drop really rare would do the trick.

What that did was mean that the community put a value on them which was high enough for someone who found one to want to part with it for that price rather than use it and likely waste it or in any case not get a result that was better than what they were being offered, for several reasons this valuation was also low enough so that if you had the currency to gather a lot of them from all the randos finding them, you could still do things that GGG didn't want and carry on until you succeeded, infinitely .

Eternals were just a stupid thing to put in the game while several other factors existed, like really fucking dumb, so dumb, it beggars belief and reduces faith in the devs.

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Char1983 wrote:

So would it be bad if the baseline average power would rise? Have you looked recently at Harbinger bows in the "medium" range (5-40 exalt)? They are pretty much all multimodded, no other way to get them. And the best Harbinger I dropped in a while (which I vendored in the end) gave me less than half the DPS my current bow gives me, and that one gives me less than half the DPS a mirror bow would give me. That is kind of extreme, don't you think?

That's because Masters yield convergence at a different point, a point where you alt/regal-spam and pray for something you can multi-mod because you don't really have other options (for your example at least, you even admit it "no other way to get them").*
One can achieve a multi-modded weapon craft merely weeks into a fresh economy, think it's just coincidence that the activity starts to drop off after that point?

*Admittedly an exaggeration but the numbers don't lie ;)

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Char1983 wrote:

Now is Eternal crafting more fun? No idea, I have never had an Eternal (I joined in about April 2015). Does it require more skill? Actually, well, not really. Know what you aim for, Eternal, Exalt, if not desired outcome, rinse/repeat. You can get to perfection, so you just go for perfection. With master scouring and re-Exalting, you will have to make more choices because you probably are not aiming for perfection to begin with.

Nah, in both instances you are aiming for what you believe you can reasonably achieve. It might be "perfect or GTFO" for the extreme upper echelon but that is far from being true as you move downwards.

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Char1983 wrote:

Now, is that bad? Well, perfect items can be seen as good or bad, it doesn't matter. It is true though that perfect items that can be infinitely cloned are bad. And it seems like GGG doesn't want us to create perfect items. It is a philosophical debate. However, to answer your last question, if Eternals result in the affix pool being artificially diluted to make Eternal crafting harder, the average player is severely impacted, and that is just not good.

Infinitely cloned you say? That's regulated by rarity and a little something called Build Diversity ;), one could even call it an opportunity cost. Either way it's something that is intrinsically irrelevant for Temporary Leagues, and mostly 'meh' for Permanent Leagues.

Okay, after some thought, Mirrors sound be changed to have the effect "Corrupts an item and creates a copy of it." This would mean both original and copy are Corrupted, although not "modified unpredictably." (Also, all existing instances of Mirrored are changed to Corrupted, which means you can Vorici them now.)

This would still achieve the economic goal of Mirrors. That goal is to encourage currency to be used as a currency by players at the lower tiers of the economy, traded for gear flowing from the upper tiers; and for players in the highest tier of the economy to consume currency in crafting. Even a nerfed Mirror encourages, by is nature, extreme currency investment in a single item prior to use. Because of this, the ability to use a Mirror will naturally cause the desired currency sink when a player decides to use it, rather than hoard or trade it.

Regarding Eternals, I'm glad to see this version of Anuhart, not trying to say he knows what everyone wants, but confident in his knowledge of what anyone could do. Given his experience, it's not wise to argue with him.

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Ashen_Shugar_IV wrote:

Infinitely cloned you say? That's regulated by rarity and a little something called Build Diversity ;), one could even call it an opportunity cost. Either way it's something that is intrinsically irrelevant for Temporary Leagues, and mostly 'meh' for Permanent Leagues.

So there is basically no point trying to craft anything in terms of weapons, because for most builds, the perfect weapon already exists, and crafting one yourself would be more expensive than saving up for a mirror. That is rather stupid, isn't it?

Also, let's check bow builds and the bow you will probably want:

Tornado Shot -> Brood Twine
Lightning Arrow -> Brood Twine or Voltaxic
Caustic Arrow -> +3 bow
Ice Shot -> Brood Twine
Explosive Arrow -> Quill Rain
Split Arrow -> Brood Twine


... so much for diversity. See a pattern here? Most skills you either want a Brood Twine or a unique. And for most builds, the perfect mirror item already exists. Perfect MF rings, perfect armours, perfect crit sword, perfect crit axe, perfect crit staff, perfect amulet, perfect quiver... whats out there is pretty insane, and all of it can be copied as often as mirrors drop. Being a vast world, you don't have to wait for a mirror to drop. You just need to grind your way to 250 Exalt or so. Crafting yourself? Highly discouraged, and Mirrors are one of the reasons why.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If there aren't perfect rares, Mirror-service providers both have limited income (some Mirror holders wait until a better craft comes out) and something to spend their Mirror-service income on (an even better craft).

Simply put, Mirrors work and are an effective incentive for crafting in an enrollment without perfect rares.

But in an economy without Mirrors, the incentive to craft is little to none. Crafting an item when a better one might become available for sale negates all investment in crafting, because items always sell for less than their average craft cost.

The economy depends on Mirrors to drive currency sinks. Mirrors depend on perfect rares not existing. Therefore, the economy depends on perfect rares not existing.

The only solution to this Eternal mess in Standard, without changing Mirror functionality, is affix power creep. Unfortunately, even without Eternals, occasional affix power creep will be necessary to preserve the economy.

I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Mirroring both items on Mirror use. I still have concerns, because it's inevitable that the trade value of both items combined will still be less than the cost to both craft and Mirror the item, but it might be enough that Mirrors encourage this cost to be split between two different players. Although that might not be enough to incentive trade. Tricky problem.

First i'd say i might also be cool with the idea of mirroring both items, but i didn't put much thought into it, but it would solve it for me at first glance. Thought a tiny bit about it now, and not sure i like it but how about this. Spawned item is mirrored(can't be recolored), original item is corrupted(can be recolored with vorici 8 and can't be mirrored again).

However, you are very wrong in the bolded part, and i have already explained to you why once before in this thread.

You underestimate people's willingness to craft. If there are no mirrors, the best way to get items will be to craft. People will waste all the currency to get the best items, and if the most efficient way is crafting, it will be done 100% you can be entirely sure of it. There will be no escaping it, crafting will happen, the entire goal of the game is to get better items and if you can't mirror items people will still do what they can. The incentive to create all manner of high range items(because they can sell now without being perfect) will go through the roof, because this is what people buy now, this is the optimal way to get power.

Mirrors actually only drives players to create the near perfect items, without mirrors it will be just extremely hard to justify/found something that close to perfect, but without mirrors you can still be sure people will want better items.

Mirrors squeeze all the crafting of various high end items into the crafting of just a few items, that's what they really do, at least in perm leagues.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Without them 5T1 and 6T1 are out of reach for even the most dedicated players.

I disagree.

Without eternals, and thus with current master crafting, 5T1 items are actually possible, with a lot of dedication, to more players.

With eternals, and thus with the inevitable changes to master crafting that would accompany them, 5T1 and 6T1 items are reasonably trivial, but to less players, with less dedication.


I guess it boils down to your definitions of dedication and trivial.

Btw anu, you got extremely lucky with your craft. You went against expectation and lucked out. You were very lucky there mate, and what a cool item with story it is too, very nice, but don't think in the rest of cases it wouldn't just be a total disappointment for someone. For your expected outcome to be such an item you'd be looking at a multiplier to your hours played, and how many people really farm as much a you do?