just add gold and be done
" You do know that this is the very first iteration of a system in a CLOSED BETA, right? Give it time before raging. |
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Reposting this (edited slightly) from a discussion on Alpha.
I honestly have no idea what anything is worth. It's frustrating and pointless to even try to guess if the vendor is offering me a good deal. I don't want to use currency on gear because I have no idea what the actual value of what I'm using might be. I don't want to trade with anyone because I can't weigh both sides of the deal. Lack of a standard currency sucks more than I have the wit to describe. That said, there are fundamental issues with traditional gold systems that I understand GGG has been trying to avoid. I think that the biggest problem is that games produce "gold" from random kills, random looting (chests, etc), random quests, etc - all allowing for easily abused farming and inflation. Gold isn't the problem; the means of it's creation in most games, is. What I would really like to see is a currency item which can only be obtained from vendors in exchange for actual currency items we use now. It should be exchanged at a rate equal to the rarity of the item. For example, if "X" drops 1/100 of the time and "Y" drops 1/200 of the time, then "X" is worth 100 of this new currency, gold for example, and "Y" is worth 200. If it turns out players prefer the 1/100 over the 1/200, then you know your rarities need adjustment, and the side effect of that would be the gold values would follow since it's nothing more than a standardized representation of the total rarity of things you have accumulated. There are problems with the bartering system, and they are pretty big. For example, right now I have no way to trade a Mirror for 10 items from 10 people, realistically speaking. One person has to come up with enough value to equal my Mirror. If I could trade the Mirror for a pile of gold equal to it's rarity, I could then divide my gold among the 10 people to purchase their items. The way things work now, you have to be as rich as me for us to do business. It makes no sense. As long as gold can only come from vendors at a rate equal to the effort of obtaining it, then it is simply a medium of exchange and nothing more. It becomes a representation of items that have been earned, in an easily understood format. I don't know what 3 shards of whatever, an orb of something, and a jewel are worth without painstaking research or a 3rd party tool (website, spreadsheet, etc). Convert that to gold (as a function of rarity), and I have my answer immediately. At the very least, while I still should research any potential sales or trades, the effort to do so is reasonable. |
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Another repost (last one).
Barter systems and money systems are the exact same thing, and here's the key: provided you don't generate money out of thin air. If one hundred dollars is equivalent to a bar of gold, and only gets printed when I own said bar of gold, then it makes more sense to pack around 100 dollars than to pack around a bar of gold. There is no fundamental difference between trading you 100 dollars, which you can exchange at the bank for the bar of gold, or a bar of gold, which you can exchange at the bank for 100 dollars. If a = b and a = c then b = c. I can list several RPG/MMO situations where a universal currency works, but that's not the point. The point is NOT that this game should be just like them. The point is that you should let me pack around dollars instead of gold bars, and the NPC's should be my bank, where the 3 things are equivalent in all ways. You could even put a tax on exchanges if you want to make it harder for me to go from one currency item to another, just to encourage player to player trades over player to NPC. Don't let the fact that we are bartering confuse you. Our money is still money. Our denominations just happen to be confusing. If orb of whatever was named platinum or gold, etc, it would provide the same function. I could trade it to a NPC for stuff, or to a player for stuff. The only difference is that I happen to be able to destroy it if I choose to (for a typically random effect). Other than that, it's the same. It serves the same purpose, it goes by a different name. When you say 1 orb of x = 2 sphere of y. Then congrats, you just said 1 bronze = 2 silver, only you used a different name for your money. You happen to be able to destroy it, big deal. Is it too much to ask that the denominations on the money be a bit more obvious, or that we be more easily able to break items down into smaller denominations when we don't want to pay for our purchases in large bills? That's all I'm really suggesting. |
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" You're not constructive at all. Everyone can't turn anything into silly arguments by doing the same as you did. Let's be reasonable, it's not necessary to overpolish a system that's not central to the game. It's like setting a TV in your toilet. I'm not saying the system is perfect. It just need some small tweaks. No need for gold in this game. Build of the week #2 : http://tinyurl.com/ce75gf4
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@Nate_Prawdzik :
You didn't understand what's a barter system. In a barter system, the value of a currency is different for everyone, that's why you can't know what worth what. It's not a bad aspect, it allows people to make win/win trades while a money system can only make equal trades, which are just plain boring. Build of the week #2 : http://tinyurl.com/ce75gf4
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" ^^^This^^^ +1  No to gold. Running isn't freedom. You should know that. ighnaz - Thanks for the beta key!!!! I HAVE NO MORE BETA KEYS!! Last edited by Soroban#6789 on Dec 27, 2011, 3:15:10 PM
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@Nate:
I responded to your posts on the alpha forums a while ago... "the premier Action RPG for hardcore gamers."
-GGG Happy hunting/fishing |
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" eBay Equal trades when money is involved? Riiight... |
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Witt, you said this:
" Is it intended that you should be killing monsters? Yes. Is it intended that they should drop items you don't need? Yes. Is it intended you can turn items you don't need into items you do need (via vendors)? Yes. Is the intent of the game to collect items you need as best as possible? Yes. Is "the best way possible" turning things you don't need into things you do need instead of just ignoring them? Yes. Using vendors is not optional when playing the game as intended. Last edited by Nate_Prawdzik#2613 on Dec 27, 2011, 3:47:10 PM
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So here's what I think. As much as we'd like to call it a Bartering System and as much as we want a bartering system, the fact is that this game uses a monetary based system. We don't have a true barter system. If we did, then we could trade an Axe to the vendor and get back a Sword. Instead it's based on orbs aka currency aka a middle man. Just as Nate_Prawdzik said, it doesnt matter by which name you call the currency, it's still currency.
Now, it stands to reason that a universal currency would streamline the whole system and make things much simpler to understand. More efficient. After all, that's what a uniform currency does. However, we still run into some core issues. Mainly, value ratios. GGG, does not want standardized value ratios. It defeats the whole purpose of player determined values and a bartering economy. However, it's clear that we don't have a bartering economy so all we have to worry about are player determined values. This can be acheived through a system as seen in Guild Wars pertaining to Dyes, Materials and Runes. For instance, IIRC Black Dye was one of the most expensive in GW. Reason being, more people bought Black Dye than they sold it. As more people bought and sold the dye, the vendor prices went higher and lower repectively. Now eventually, inflation got out of hand, but that's a different issue. Point is, values remained player determined. If we can create something like this in PoE, considering that we DO have a monetary based economy, then gold might not be a bad idea. However, that's boring and many of us want a true bartering economy. We don't want gold and we don't want to have to deal with the issues that a uniform currency brings. We want a different system and we want it to work. We need to stop coming at GGG with 'This idea sucks, you need to scrap it and start over with something tried and true' and start offering valuable suggestions on how to make their ideas work. So here's what I think to make what we HAVE better. In a bartering economy, certain things will always have more value than others despite personal value. Such things would be necessities and things of practical value. Things like food, warm clothes, tools and objects with intrinsic value and of course the value of all these items has to be weighed against supply and demand. Orbs aren't quite as necessitous as food and clothing. However they do have intrinsic value and play an important role in everyday life and survival. It's only natural that they would become the currency of choice whether or not GGG designated them as so. The drop rates of orbs determine supply and their usefulness determines demand. Over time, the economy will reach a natural equilibrium. This is great, we want this to happen. The question is, how do we reach an equilibrium of player determined values without influencing them in any way? In the current vendor system, we are given set value ratios. 1 portal scroll = 3 wisdom scrolls = 15 white items. 1 magic find mod is worth 1/20 of an alchemy orb. These are set values that directly influence the economy and trade ratios. In order for vendors to remain neutral we need a way to upset fixed values. A great way to do this would be rotating recipes. Every day vendors would require different trade ratios. One day 5 whites = 1 wis scroll, and the next 5 whites = 2 transmutation shards. This would prevent players from basing prices off the vendors and would force players into making useful trades. To further upset fixed values, recipe rewards could be made random. Instead of a Whetstone for 40% worth of weapons, the reward could be 4 Alteration shards one day and then 1 wisdom scroll the next. By keeping things random, you keep things neutral. This random system would work perfectly for items too. MF mods would be worth an Alchemy shard one day, and the next they are worth a Scouring shard. The possibilites are endless as long as they vary from day to day. In order for this to work, we would need a barter screen like in Fallout and also a selling screen for 'currency' like we have now. In the barter screen your items would be on one side, and the vendor's on the other. Let's say you choose an Amulet from Nessa and place that in the trade window. You then choose something you would feel would make a suitable exchange. If your offer doesn't stack up, then no trade takes place. This allows a much more realistic approach to bartering. In the selling screen, you place the items you want to sell in the window, and the vendor offers orbs. The orbs offered would vary day to day. Rotating and randomn recipes satisfy many goals. They provide the means for a True bartering economy while removing fixed value ratios. They provide a completely optional trading mechanism that is simple and rewarding but not too rewarding to detract from the main method of acquiring wealth. The only issue left would be supply which is easily altered on GGG's end through drop rates. This in no way makes things more complicated, nor does it make it hard for a player to know their own wealth. In an economy with player determined values and random vendors, any item you have adds to your wealth. If you have a stack of 20 Orbs of Scouring you are potentially just as wealthy, if not moreso, as a person with a stack of 20 Alchemy's. Granted, some items will generally be more valuable than others, that's only natural. In real life, in terms of practicality, a gun will always be worth more than a knife. It's natural. |
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