I am lucky, therefore game is fine

"

will you just stop this shit?
look, we both know by your definition of "multiplayer ARPG", only Path Of Exile is one.
and yes, it is for me. otherwise I wouldn't be here for nearly 3 years. as long as you I bet. at least.
I enjoy it a lot. it's a great game and neither you nor anyone else has any damned right to tell me I should quit.

Diablo 2 is the other quintessential multiplayer ARPG - yes it 100% is/was one. And like I previously mentioned, it had the same mechanics of RNG and was infinitely harder to gear out a character.

I never said you should quit. I said that if your balancing ideas about the game are to better the single player experience and ultimately destroy the multiplayer experience, perhaps multiplayer games aren't for you, because they will never be designed/balanced like that.

"

care about my own experience? interesting point.
every player cares about his/her own experience, including you and me.
but as a very long-time player and fan of the genre, I've seen stuff being implemented differently. implemented better. and in my opinion, GGG can implement it better too, and should. because it may just make the game even better than it already is.
better, primarily for people who don't like trade and wish their skill and dedication in the game itself meant something, rather than just their devotion to grinding the same things 100x times over, or their XYZ-posting and bartering-with-other-players skills.
is that such a narrow point of view? I don't think so.
is that such an unrealistic expectation? no.

You already admitted that your idea would be impossible to work for all builds, and that there will always be builds to steamroll all content.

So yes, by still insisting this is a good idea, even though it will completely destroy the competitive, multiplayer aspect of the game, it is extremely narrow-minded and unrealistic.

"

Moving the goalposts is an admission that you don't have a coherent argument and aren't willing to listen to reason. You'll forgive me if I stop responding to you.

Normally I would agree. Except you stated that Diablo 2 was an example of a multiplayer ARPG with guaranteed BiS loot tables behind hard encounter (wait this is a hard encounter?) because there is a single item (well technically 2 - both charms that were super cheap anyways) that drops off of a certain boss.

If you can't see how ignorant that is then yes, please, do stop responding.

"

Vaux wrote:

You already admitted that your idea would be impossible to work for all builds, and that there will always be builds to steamroll all content.

So yes, by still insisting this is a good idea, even though it will completely destroy the competitive, multiplayer aspect of the game, it is extremely narrow-minded and unrealistic.

my "idea"? did I make a concrete suggestion?
no. I only described a concept, and said it will be extremely hard to do given PoE's awesome diversity and complexity.
extremely hard, but by no means impossible.
extremely hard, but by all means worth the effort, because it will boost the game to the next level.

builds that steamroll all content? as if there aren't already. actively encouraged by GGG at that, because virtually every patch brings deliberately-overpowered gems and combinations, to be nerfed by the next and replaced with another set, and repeat.

competitive aspect? can't really see any outside Races and maybe PvP (and PvP is arguable).
from a by-stander's point of view, it looks like the same people win all the "competitiveness" every single time, with superior goal-driven party-play CO-OP and trading skills.
so maybe instead of bothering with trying to put sticks in the steam-rolling wheels of high-end Streamers and super-rich Economy Barons and balancing the whole fucking game around the fact they exist - here's a crazy idea. really far-fetched:
maybe, just maybe, GGG should put more effort on making the game more fun, for the other 99% instead ?

apparently Chris actually agrees with me for once. that's why they made the famous "4x more Shavs" RNG change.
a change I - surprise surprise - do not like, because although it does potentially make the game more hopeful for the non-Trade-Baron player, it is nothing in terms of Risk/Reward.
if you get a Shavs, you'll get it only because RNG now likes you 4 times more.
you won't necessarily get it, because you earned it. by surviving some out-of-this-world insane encounter or set of encounters, and showing exceptional playing and game-knowledge skills.
but it is a change, that proves GGG are capable of thinking differently, even if they aren't yet willing to take on the Titan of actually implementing a risk/reward system in PoE.

The reward, john, is another roll of the dice, not the result of said roll.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

The reward, john, is another roll of the dice, not the result of said roll.

if another roll of the dice is to be a reward, then that roll needs to be biased.

if I can roll 1d900 after beating a harder encounter, instead of the usual 1d1000 - that's risk/reward.
if I just keep rolling 1d1000 no matter what - there is no point in calling it a reward.
moreover it only encourages skipping danger, and grinding of the easiest possible content that allows as many 1d1000's per second as possible, then trading for what you need with the scraps you collected while working your day job in Wraeclast.

an ARPG isn't a day job, Scrotie.
it's a game where you kill monsters first and maybe trade second if trade even exists.
and it's a game where you can logically expect your odds to get your Shavs from Abaxoth The Kick Ass Of All There Is, to be higher than from one-shot monkey the 7000th.
otherwise, what's the point?

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

The reward, john, is another roll of the dice, not the result of said roll.

if another roll of the dice is to be a reward, then that roll needs to be biased.

if I can roll 1d900 after beating a harder encounter, instead of the usual 1d1000 - that's risk/reward.
if I just keep rolling 1d1000 no matter what - there is no point in calling it a reward.
moreover it only encourages skipping danger, and grinding of the easiest possible content that allows as many 1d1000's per second as possible, then trading for what you need with the scraps you collected while working your day job in Wraeclast.

an ARPG isn't a day job, Scrotie.
it's a game where you kill monsters first and maybe trade second if trade even exists.
and it's a game where you can logically expect your odds to get your Shavs from Abaxoth The Kick Ass Of All There Is, to be higher than from one-shot monkey the 7000th.
otherwise, what's the point?

That would make it rigged and kill the economy, so, no.

would you stop with those annoying one-liners, Wretch?
the worst possible thing you can do, is base your non-economy-simulator game around an economy - instead of just letting economy balance itself and take its natural course.
and GGG are doing just that: so much focus on economy, it's sickening. they shouldn't even be interfering with it, because it's all about the players who take part in it.

so yes, there's an economy. yes it is part of the game. yes I don't give a fuck about it, but some people do so need to respect that.
but respecting is one thing.
turning an ARPG into Railroad Tycoon only because the Tycoon part exists as a feature - is quite another.

I can't even begin to tell you how annoyed I am over the fact, people automatically associate Path Of Exile with "wealth", "price", "b/o", "WTS", "Exalts", "market value", "XYZ"...
seriously, look the game up on Google, Youtube, whatever.
damn it, where did the "monsters", "bosses", "NPCs", "gems", "loot", "build", and "passive skills" go?

From my perspective you keep repeating yourself over and over again. I've already covered it. One line is sufficient.

As chunda said, there is no real risk/reward in this game.

All of my most valuable possessions either dropped from a random barrel/chest (kaoms, lightning coils, exalted orbs) or random trash monsters (pledge of hands, mjolner, etc).

Atziri/Uber is the closest you can get to risk/reward in this game imo, more content like that but preferably not gated by fragments but difficulty would be interesting to see.

This thread is a fun read. Miracle it didnt get a lock lol.

hey john, this game isnt perfect but it's important we play for fun.
I see you are old generation gamer, lets say my first games had only 2 colors as well.

I wouldnt mind running some maps with u, just for fun. Its how I play now.
Every time poe upsets me, I just shut it down and try again next day. I stopped looking how others play.
I play my game now.

"

my "idea"? did I make a concrete suggestion?
no. I only described a concept, and said it will be extremely hard to do given PoE's awesome diversity and complexity.
extremely hard, but by no means impossible.
extremely hard, but by all means worth the effort, because it will boost the game to the next level.

We all know what your idea is, and it is to put either guaranteed loot tables in or at the very least a much higher % chance behind harder encounters. And no matter HOW this is implemented, it breaks the multiplayer aspect of the game. Completely breaks it. It does not work.

"

builds that steamroll all content? as if there aren't already. actively encouraged by GGG at that, because virtually every patch brings deliberately-overpowered gems and combinations, to be nerfed by the next and replaced with another set, and repeat.

Uhh...yes, that is the point. There are absolutely builds that steamroll everything, that literally anyone can afford, which is why your 'general concept' will not work, regardless of how you want to spin it.

"

competitive aspect? can't really see any outside Races and maybe PvP (and PvP is arguable).
from a by-stander's point of view, it looks like the same people win all the "competitiveness" every single time, with superior goal-driven party-play CO-OP and trading skills.
so maybe instead of bothering with trying to put sticks in the steam-rolling wheels of high-end Streamers and super-rich Economy Barons and balancing the whole fucking game around the fact they exist - here's a crazy idea. really far-fetched:
maybe, just maybe, GGG should put more effort on making the game more fun, for the other 99% instead ?

Oh, look who's using huge generalizations as fact now! Look at this thread John. You have like 2 supporters versus dozens of people that have come in to tell you how unreasonable you're being. Sorry, but the VAST majority of this playerbase enjoys the bartering, because it is in fact, a core piece of a multiplayer ARPG. And this vast majority does not fall into the 1% high-end streamers/super-rich economy Barons.

It's great that you love the game for the story, graphics, music and all other aspects. But if you can't wrap your head around the fact that a multiplayer game with competitive aspects (yes races, PvP, character progression/perfection, trophies, etc.. all count as competitive aspects of the game) will never ever ever be designed around a single player experience while ruining one of the key multiplayer experiences... then I don't know what to tell you. There are three outcomes for you:

You finally realize it is a hopeless idea and accept the state of the game.

You finally realize it is a hopeless idea and quit.

Or you continue down your current path, beating your head against a wall that will never ever budge, because budging would mean destroying their own game.