I still think map drops are fine - boost drops and good players can do 79++ all day long

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

There's so much wrong with your attitude. You refuse to trade, you refuse to party, you refuse to spend currency on maps, and you don't want to run vaal'd maps.

That's right and there's plenty of us who want nothing to do with the "attitude" of pay2play Path of Exalts elitists. We want to progress through our own in-game skills and efforts rather than buying our way past the virtual paywall that gates endgame content.

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

a side note about 'economy says that maps are sustainable':

ever heard of price fixing? have you tried to BUY these maps? it might be so that if you try the 'seller' will not sell and when asked 'why' will have a nice answer 'cannot really tell'.

but he is ready to buy similar maps for the price he had just fixed

works for any limited-availability goods

Again, I do not believe a small number of available items (such as with 82 maps) says there is a real surplus. With small quantities like that you can have all kinds of things going on. But when you have 99+ items available from scores of sellers (as with 78 maps and lower), there is too much competition within the marketplace, you know stuff like price fixing or abnormally good luck aren't factors.

Really what it looks like is that players will eventually be sustaining up to 80, and not able to sustain 81 or 82. Which is essentially what GGG said they wanted.

But the really strange thing is, even with 99+ availability, people are still grasping for any reason to evade the truth... also, myopically focused on 81+ maps when their actual complaints involve maps 79 and below...

and what is your PERSONAL experience of maintaining maps? sorry to put it bluntly - your characters suggest you have little to no mid+ map experience.. characters are so glassy that even early 70 should be lethal to them

so what is your PERSONAL (not anecdotal, not your friends' expierience, not search results) experience on subject matter?

Irrelevant. The economy represents an amalgam of thousands of player experiences, and is far more reliable indicator than any experience I could ever personally have. Or that you could have.

Also, you're contradicting yourself: all personal experiences, once shared, are anecdotal. I mean, that's the true nature of all of these map QQ threads: they are all anecdotal tellings of a situation where the majority experience is much more clearly spoken by the economy.

Again, I'm not saying there isn't anything wrong with maps. There is a lot of complaining, and I don't think it's wise to just dismiss such QQ as "unlucky." However, sustainment levels seem to be close to what GGG intended, so the sustainment thing isn't the actual problem. I think the biggest change bothering people has less to do with droprates and more to do with the fact that rares cannot drop +2 level maps at all, greatly shifting importance onto previously skipped boss fights... in other words, players who skip bosses cannot sustain anymore.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

in other words, players who skip bosses cannot sustain anymore.

Bosses don't drop +2 nearly as regularly as you think. I've seen maybe two times a boss dropped +2. If they drop a map, it's 5 levels lower than the one you're running.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I think the biggest change bothering people has less to do with droprates and more to do with the fact that rares cannot drop +2 level maps at all, greatly shifting importance onto previously skipped boss fights... in other words, players who skip bosses cannot sustain anymore.

Try it.

Go on, try it. Then come back and tell me just how many maps bosses dropped, any level maps let alone +2s.

Indeed the lack of rares being able to +2 and the lack of exiles/beyond being able to drop any maps at all is a big factor in sustain issues. Skipping bosses, however, is a drop in the ocean.

I, like many, made some builds that I wanted to make in 2.0, then made a build I could progress on. A build that could do any mods, nasty mods, stacking nasty mods.

I could have skipped all the bosses so far and I'd be no worse off. The biggest issue for me right now is fracture, because it is likely I'll crash to log screen and lose the whole map where 99.9% of my map drops come from. Progression and sustain is almost exclusively +1s -1s and 0s from map monsters, not bosses.

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

20% Exp is fine once you start pushing 90+. Your idea of map level = character level implying appropriate content is arbitrary as well as naive. A L100 player can easily die in a L70 zone (Atziri). Additional passives after 80-90 don't increase character power significantly. In fact the power growth is much less than linear for most builds. Why would it make sense to fight mobs that scale in power linearly per map level? It wouldn't. L90 mobs would probably one-shot most L90 characters. My friends and I are content to do 77-79 maps even with L95 characters. Sliqs (first L100 in Warbands) was fine doing 79-80 maps when he was L99. The fact that you just can't stand doing L75-77 maps at 91 just shows your lack of experience leveling into the mid 90s.

Please read what I wrote before. I do not care about getting to level 100, I think its a mindless grind. If people enjoy that, that is fine with me, I don't. I do not want to level into the mid-90s. I just want to play the game. With content that is fun.

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

I run everything except blood magic. I avoid -max + elem, but I could run them if I really wanted to. I've had a decent amount of 81-82 drops in corrupt 120%+ maps.

See, you cannot run each and every map. There is your challenge.

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

There's so much wrong with your attitude. You refuse to trade, you refuse to party, you refuse to spend currency on maps, and you don't want to run vaal'd maps. Yet you want to be given the same amount of power as all the players who take advantage of all the tools they have to progress. So you're suggesting that the truly dedicated players should just be hit with a wall where they can't progress any faster than "dedicated casuals"? Maybe you should go play torchlight 2 or Skyrim then...

I do not refuse to trade, I just find it very tedious and annoying and time-consuming, I would rather play the game.

I do not refuse to party, I just do not have a lot of people I can run a good party with, that consists of more than just clearing the map as fast as possible and not even giving a comment when one of the players dies to bad playing or lag.

I do not want your power, your exalts, your gear. If you are able to oneshot uber Atziri, fine with me, not my problem. I came late to the party, I will never get as rich as some other players in this game, which is also fine with me.

I just want one thing: To be able to play the game. And currently, that is made really hard by how maps drop. My character was put together for less than 10 exalts, yet I still think that with some training and skill I could beat the bosses in level 80 maps (I can do all the ones in level 77 maps that have 100% quantity unless they are really weirdly rolled - not sure about Shock and Horror because it was too laggy last time I tried).

And not being able to play the game is really frustrating. Gating away items is one thing, gating content is another. I think that if your character is strong enough, your character should be allowed to venture in regions that are challenging for him / her.

"

RogueMage wrote:

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

There's so much wrong with your attitude. You refuse to trade, you refuse to party, you refuse to spend currency on maps, and you don't want to run vaal'd maps.

That's right and there's plenty of us who want nothing to do with the "attitude" of pay2play Path of Exalts elitists. We want to progress through our own in-game skills and efforts rather than buying our way past the virtual paywall that gates endgame content.

Well said, RogueMage. I wish this wasn't so hard to understand for a lot of people.

"

Ceri wrote:

"

RogueMage wrote:

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

There's so much wrong with your attitude. You refuse to trade, you refuse to party, you refuse to spend currency on maps, and you don't want to run vaal'd maps.

That's right and there's plenty of us who want nothing to do with the "attitude" of pay2play Path of Exalts elitists. We want to progress through our own in-game skills and efforts rather than buying our way past the virtual paywall that gates endgame content.

Well said, RogueMage. I wish this wasn't so hard to understand for a lot of people.

"

Char1983 wrote:

I just want to play the game. With content that is fun. And not being able to play the game is really frustrating. Gating away items is one thing, gating content is another. I think that if your character is strong enough, your character should be allowed to venture in regions that are challenging for him / her.

You guys keep refusing to admit that there's nothing natively wrong with content being equivalent to items. We have trading, and we can buy content as well as items in trade. If it's worth it for you, then you buy it. Likewise, if you get maps, you can sell them if you don't want to run them. Eventually everyone runs out of content. Once you've done all the 82s a couple times, and killed uber, you're out of content. Then the game becomes a grind. The fact that you guys are refusing to use all the tools available to you, and to open your minds, shouldn't be the developer's problem.

There already exist different games that cater to people who want to be able to do content for free. PoE is unique in that content has value. Why would we want to take away what is unique about PoE? Also you keep asking for a less challenging game. Just no. Set your own benchmarks and try to achieve them. Don't complain that you can't do the high level maps you see dedicated players doing. Just like you wouldn't think to complain about them having a 6L lightning coil while you have a 5L...

Is it funny that map-sustainability threads always seem to be filled with apologists that have no clue about the subject? That are purely theorizing, which is just silly to anyone who has practical experience.


Seriously though, stop feeding the trolls people.

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

We have trading, and we can buy content as well as items in trade. If it's worth it for you, then you buy it. Likewise, if you get maps, you can sell them if you don't want to run them... The fact that you guys are refusing to use all the tools available to you, and to open your minds wallets, shouldn't be the developer's problem.

FTFY

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

You guys keep refusing to admit that there's nothing natively wrong with content being equivalent to items.

Yes, I keep refusing to see that. What is the point? I don't get it.

This is new and has been introduced with 2.0. Before, you could get to 78 maps if you wanted to. You could even get to Uber Atziri if you wanted to, by farming Atziri, given you had characters capable of farming Atziri. Different story with 2.0. Even if you have a character capable of farming lvl 82 maps (which I don't, possibly yet), you need insane amounts of playing time to get to the point where you get a Core map. Or get lucky. Or buy it.

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

Once you've done all the 82s a couple times, and killed uber, you're out of content.

And that is fine. What is frustrating is having the carrot on the stick with lots of content dangling around, but you cannot get there. BTW I most likely never will kill Uber, I am fine with killing normal Atziri (which I also have not done yet, need to find a slot with stable connection, which in my case means less than 200ms latency and not a lot of spikes). Uber Atziri is not really new content, its just a harder version of the same content. And if I cannot do it because my character is too weak for it, so be it.

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

There already exist different games that cater to people who want to be able to do content for free.

Yes, but I like Path of Exile for all the other things it has.

"

MatrixFactor wrote:

PoE is unique in that content has value.

No. PoE 2.0 is unique in that regard. PoE 1.3 had easier-to-sustain maps of the same level, and PoE 2.0 has 4 more levels for maps. This is not unique about PoE, it has been introduced with the patch, and that is why a lot of people are very frustrated.