Player feedback on trading (both sides welcome)

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

Druga1757 wrote:

The original thread pretty much sums it up. It feels like you don't find anything good because you don't find upgrades (late game) for the build you're playing. Trading is the best way to get upgrades.

If PoE made it so finding upgrades on the build you're playing was the best way to get upgrades, I'd have no problem with trade. It's fun, that rush of finding a good upgrade can never be replicated by just buying it.

It's why people ask for an alternate, parallel self-found league, in addition to the legacy and temp leagues. They want to find their own upgrades without trading for it. Finding gear with the right stats for your build. Finding the right unique for your build.

But since GGG is still stuck on one economy to rule them all (here's hoping the come to their senses, like they did with perma alloc., and lockstep! SFL Please!), the least they could do is provide a decent trade system. Asynchronous trade. Market price tracking, especially currency exchange rates. Put up an item for sale, and you can search a history of how much similar items sold for, fluctuations in prices, etc.

The popularity of poe.trade and procurement tell me most other players want better tools to trade. But they still don't have asynchronous trade or market price tracking - I feel those features GGG can, and should, provide.

I think everyone can agree they wouldn't mind having a smart loot style of play, the problem with self found leagues or smart loot is you get what you need much sooner as drops then you could ever wish to get with randomness.

I completely disagree with creating all of these "leagues" just to cater to everyone's wishes of playstyles. You aren't a unqiue snowflake that GGG needs to make the game work the way you (others) think. Sometimes, and in this particular case people don't know what they are asking for. Best case in point is basically you are asking for D3's loot 2.0, which IMO would be TERRIBLE for PoE.

How could a game that is based off of economy and trade like now ever compete with the feeling that a self found, loot falling from the sky of what a self found league could provide? It couldn't, if you could find every single unqiue in the game (divination cards basically doing this for us) easily why would you ever play a mode that was more painful to find loot? You simply would not. Like I said this issue is addressed with divination cards.

I don't support asynchronous trade in the way you've mentioned, only in a very limited, very controlled fashion.

If GGG added poe.trade and procurement along with some "tracking like tools" and still required player interaction for completing trades would this be ok or not?

The argument of course is as always "that is an AH why not just make it automatic" because automatic = more people doing it = inflation = no reward for doing anything other then undercutting the cheapest seller.

Smart loot would of course be faster than just pure randomness, but so is trade. Why is it ok for trade to be faster than pure randomness, but self found isn't?

If you don't like D3 smart loot because you think it's too fast, then how about you can find loot, self found, in PoE, just as fast as you can trade for it? Slow enough?

What's wrong with more leagues? Doesn't stop anyone from playing in more than one league. People play in more than one league right now, and race on top of it. PoE even went nuts with pvp/events, despite the small number of "unique snowflake" pvp players. They even implemented separate mechanics to balance pvp vs pve. There have been multiple, 100 page threads on SFL, and almost none on pvp, prior to pvp events being implemented. SFL has FAR more "unqiue snowflakes" than pvp. So, again, the precedence is there - GGG has no issue with catering to "unique snowflakes". Additional leagues is a non-issue.

People know EXACTLY what they are asking for. Perma Alloc. Lockstep. Loot filter. Time and again.

That's what asynchronous trade means, both sides have to manually agree to the terms, they just don't have to be online at the same time.

"

Druga1757 wrote:

Smart loot would of course be faster than just pure randomness, but so is trade. Why is it ok for trade to be faster than pure randomness, but self found isn't?

If you don't like D3 smart loot because you think it's too fast, then how about you can find loot, self found, in PoE, just as fast as you can trade for it? Slow enough?

What's wrong with more leagues? Doesn't stop anyone from playing in more than one league. People play in more than one league right now, and race on top of it. PoE even went nuts with pvp/events, despite the small number of "unique snowflake" pvp players. They even implemented separate mechanics to balance pvp vs pve. There have been multiple, 100 page threads on SFL, and almost none on pvp, prior to pvp events being implemented. SFL has FAR more "unqiue snowflakes" than pvp. So, again, the precedence is there - GGG has no issue with catering to "unique snowflakes". Additional leagues is a non-issue.

People know EXACTLY what they are asking for. Perma Alloc. Lockstep. Loot filter. Time and again.

That's what asynchronous trade means, both sides have to manually agree to the terms, they just don't have to be online at the same time.

There is a difference between finding items that you can sell and trading to get what you want and being able to and having drop rates set to such a way that everything you can possibly want will drop in a much shorter amount of time.

Currently many people don't or have never gotten a T1 item drop, myself included, which kind of makes you wonder why I am against such a system and it mainly has to do with the fact that the way the game works builds are enabled or disabled for people based off what they can find first and foremost and then what they could trade for.

If your given $200 you can buy a lot with it right? If your expenses were $1,000 no matter how many times you want that $200 to be $1000 it won't be. But lets say you are creative and invest that $200 in various forms of either making money or whatever. You COULD turn that into what you needed to but just because you have $200 doesn't mean you will.

The same basic concept can be applied to poe. People build up wealth to trade and buy what they want, if they didn't have to save up and were just handed something, don't you think that somewhat detracts from the experience, especially in an ARPG game?

If someone gives you an item you've been needing for a while are you happy, sure, but that piece would have felt better if you would have found it (endorphins, ect) but almost as good if you feel you earned it by trading and saving up for it.

Self found in PoE currently is something players choose to do for whatever reason. Is it slower then trading, damn right, but lots of changes like (gems) in beta will improve this. Hell I said divination cards are essentially your answer to a self found league and you completely ignore that point.

In an ARPG game people will play in different leagues depending on what they want. If you want the best game, IMO its one that doesn't require any effort (for the most part) that would be self found league that is balanced as such would be, the downside to this is many of the aspects of building up a character gets removed because it is self found you will be able to do almost everything easier, linking, items, crafting, ect. That isn't the game I fell in love with.

PvP was something and is something they had slated for addition to the game for a long time. The separate balance of it, design of some unqiues and other content is perfectly fine, this enables more options for play, doesn't remove it or create a specifically better way to play, which is what a self found league does.

Additional leagues are fine, but not self found or any league that changes a core principle of the game. I go on later to discuss this...

There is a HUGE different between perma allocation, lockstep, and loot filter then there is for a SELF FOUND LEAGUE.

Perma allocation does go against something GGG wanted to recreate from D2, in this way they did go against a design principle in order to cater to more people and remove the hostility from parties. (qol change)

Lockstep is the answer to the BIGGEST ISSUE GGG HAS EVER HAD. Nothing more needs to be said about that. (qol change)

Loot filter is an answer to people that were using cheats for QoL things. In addition this helps solve people's issue with loot clutter on the screen. I actually said in a thread about this issue where people said reduce the amount of items that drop and increase the quality (meaning rarity) and I said NO, people want bases to alch or craft with, even a 10-20% reduction wouldn't solve the issue they needed to add a loot filter, which they did and I agree 100% with. This is a QOL change.

A self found league first and foremost is not a QoL change. Which is why I am completely confused as to why you could possibly think its ok to compare it to ones that are. Its a completely different way to play the game, the closest thing you can compare it to is PvP, but that is a far reach as one is a gameplay style for players in the already existing leagues and the other is a concept so farfetched from the original design that GGG had I don't know why they would ever consider adding it.

You and others are asking GGG to throw out any and all ideas of an "economy" and any and all ideas of "unqiue item balance" in order to make it so people that never want to trade, interact, ect can play the game and not feel like they are playing a lessor version of the game. If GGG ever adds this I'll be so extremely surprised that I might go as far as calling them "sellouts" In no way does a self found league benefit GGG or the overall design of the game. GGG makes money off of MTX sales, if you never interact with another player you are less likely to buy MTX's for one. The overall design of PoE isn't this I get what I need along the way have a happy day feeling, its a HARDCORE ARPG game, if you want a game that is balanced around solo play there already is one you can play. I want this game to grow and succeed further, but not at the cost of sacrificing the core idea of the game.

But only time will tell what GGG does regarding self found, simply because its a popular topic does NOT mean its something they "have to add" its their game after all and if the idea is so far from what they intended by the game design there should be no reason why they would do it.

For shits and giggles I'd love for GGG to add a self found league that had a $1000 buy in per character. At least this way GGG could "roll in the money" from selling their "game design soul"

Are you familiar with the value trade offer system? I guess something like that is ok for you? I think it should be somewhat limited as even that can be automated.

"

goetzjam wrote:

even an item like Goldrim has a huge gap in prices based off of roll, how exactly would automated trade accommodate for something like that if you think all items like it aren't worth bartering over?

I dont mean that 'all items' dont need bartering; its just that if generic stuff (as for most uniques) can be bought in an instant-deal, then the lowest price will 'always' win: why pay more? (of course it needs some safety against tries to control this market)

The price of an item changes over the time a league runs, but there's no need for that huge price gap between comparable rolls.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Spoiler

"

Druga1757 wrote:

Smart loot would of course be faster than just pure randomness, but so is trade. Why is it ok for trade to be faster than pure randomness, but self found isn't?

If you don't like D3 smart loot because you think it's too fast, then how about you can find loot, self found, in PoE, just as fast as you can trade for it? Slow enough?

What's wrong with more leagues? Doesn't stop anyone from playing in more than one league. People play in more than one league right now, and race on top of it. PoE even went nuts with pvp/events, despite the small number of "unique snowflake" pvp players. They even implemented separate mechanics to balance pvp vs pve. There have been multiple, 100 page threads on SFL, and almost none on pvp, prior to pvp events being implemented. SFL has FAR more "unqiue snowflakes" than pvp. So, again, the precedence is there - GGG has no issue with catering to "unique snowflakes". Additional leagues is a non-issue.

People know EXACTLY what they are asking for. Perma Alloc. Lockstep. Loot filter. Time and again.

That's what asynchronous trade means, both sides have to manually agree to the terms, they just don't have to be online at the same time.

There is a difference between finding items that you can sell and trading to get what you want and being able to and having drop rates set to such a way that everything you can possibly want will drop in a much shorter amount of time.

Currently many people don't or have never gotten a T1 item drop, myself included, which kind of makes you wonder why I am against such a system and it mainly has to do with the fact that the way the game works builds are enabled or disabled for people based off what they can find first and foremost and then what they could trade for.

If your given $200 you can buy a lot with it right? If your expenses were $1,000 no matter how many times you want that $200 to be $1000 it won't be. But lets say you are creative and invest that $200 in various forms of either making money or whatever. You COULD turn that into what you needed to but just because you have $200 doesn't mean you will.

The same basic concept can be applied to poe. People build up wealth to trade and buy what they want, if they didn't have to save up and were just handed something, don't you think that somewhat detracts from the experience, especially in an ARPG game?

If someone gives you an item you've been needing for a while are you happy, sure, but that piece would have felt better if you would have found it (endorphins, ect) but almost as good if you feel you earned it by trading and saving up for it.

Self found in PoE currently is something players choose to do for whatever reason. Is it slower then trading, damn right, but lots of changes like (gems) in beta will improve this. Hell I said divination cards are essentially your answer to a self found league and you completely ignore that point.

In an ARPG game people will play in different leagues depending on what they want. If you want the best game, IMO its one that doesn't require any effort (for the most part) that would be self found league that is balanced as such would be, the downside to this is many of the aspects of building up a character gets removed because it is self found you will be able to do almost everything easier, linking, items, crafting, ect. That isn't the game I fell in love with.

PvP was something and is something they had slated for addition to the game for a long time. The separate balance of it, design of some unqiues and other content is perfectly fine, this enables more options for play, doesn't remove it or create a specifically better way to play, which is what a self found league does.

Additional leagues are fine, but not self found or any league that changes a core principle of the game. I go on later to discuss this...

There is a HUGE different between perma allocation, lockstep, and loot filter then there is for a SELF FOUND LEAGUE.

Perma allocation does go against something GGG wanted to recreate from D2, in this way they did go against a design principle in order to cater to more people and remove the hostility from parties. (qol change)

Lockstep is the answer to the BIGGEST ISSUE GGG HAS EVER HAD. Nothing more needs to be said about that. (qol change)

Loot filter is an answer to people that were using cheats for QoL things. In addition this helps solve people's issue with loot clutter on the screen. I actually said in a thread about this issue where people said reduce the amount of items that drop and increase the quality (meaning rarity) and I said NO, people want bases to alch or craft with, even a 10-20% reduction wouldn't solve the issue they needed to add a loot filter, which they did and I agree 100% with. This is a QOL change.

A self found league first and foremost is not a QoL change. Which is why I am completely confused as to why you could possibly think its ok to compare it to ones that are. Its a completely different way to play the game, the closest thing you can compare it to is PvP, but that is a far reach as one is a gameplay style for players in the already existing leagues and the other is a concept so farfetched from the original design that GGG had I don't know why they would ever consider adding it.

You and others are asking GGG to throw out any and all ideas of an "economy" and any and all ideas of "unqiue item balance" in order to make it so people that never want to trade, interact, ect can play the game and not feel like they are playing a lessor version of the game. If GGG ever adds this I'll be so extremely surprised that I might go as far as calling them "sellouts" In no way does a self found league benefit GGG or the overall design of the game. GGG makes money off of MTX sales, if you never interact with another player you are less likely to buy MTX's for one. The overall design of PoE isn't this I get what I need along the way have a happy day feeling, its a HARDCORE ARPG game, if you want a game that is balanced around solo play there already is one you can play. I want this game to grow and succeed further, but not at the cost of sacrificing the core idea of the game.

But only time will tell what GGG does regarding self found, simply because its a popular topic does NOT mean its something they "have to add" its their game after all and if the idea is so far from what they intended by the game design there should be no reason why they would do it.

For shits and giggles I'd love for GGG to add a self found league that had a $1000 buy in per character. At least this way GGG could "roll in the money" from selling their "game design soul"

Are you familiar with the value trade offer system? I guess something like that is ok for you? I think it should be somewhat limited as even that can be automated.

No one is asking for anything to be thrown out. A SFL is an ALTERNATE OPTION. Just like Perma Allocation. Optional. Lockstep. Optional. PvP. Optional. Loot Filter. Optional. SFL is OPTIONAL. If you don't want to play with SF rules, then play in a trade league. Tired of SF? play in trade league. And vice versa. I don't know why you are you resistant to an optional playstyle when GGG has already done optional features and play styles.

"

Mr_Cee wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

even an item like Goldrim has a huge gap in prices based off of roll, how exactly would automated trade accommodate for something like that if you think all items like it aren't worth bartering over?

I dont mean that 'all items' dont need bartering; its just that if generic stuff (as for most uniques) can be bought in an instant-deal, then the lowest price will 'always' win: why pay more? (of course it needs some safety against tries to control this market)

The price of an item changes over the time a league runs, but there's no need for that huge price gap between comparable rolls.

The problem like I've mentioned with that is people will have to undercut each other constantly to make the sell.

The huge price gap between similar rolls has to do with how attached someone is to an item, obviously you would never pay more for an item that is worst, but now if someone isnt online to sell you that one for cheaper, you would pay more. With an AH even if it is limited to "cheap unqiues" which are both the easiest things to buy and sell, seller would always be online essentially.

"

No one is asking for anything to be thrown out. A SFL is an ALTERNATE OPTION. Just like Perma Allocation. Optional. Lockstep. Optional. PvP. Optional. Loot Filter. Optional. SFL is OPTIONAL. If you don't want to play with SF rules, then play in a trade league. Tired of SF? play in trade league. And vice versa. I don't know why you are you resistant to an optional playstyle when GGG has already done optional features and play styles.

Optional, I see here you weren't going for the good old QoL thing. However GGG did not make these options available because they like more options they are doing it for QOL, much different basis then your SFL.

PvP is to enable something they said they would do, its aligned with there core principle. Yes it is an optional playstyle.



SF rules, what rules? Where you cannot trade with other players because the game would be balanced in such a way you would never need to? Lets take this a step further, not everyone that wants SFL wants it balanced in such a way you get rainbows and butterflys from drops. Some people just want to not have to worry about trading and compete on a separate leaderboard, IMO nothing is really wrong with that if they aren't getting special treatment.

However if a SFL involved special treatment and is somehow changed THE CORE OF THE GAME, why on earth would they add such a league?

Optional features ALWAYS > optional playstyles.

So when you say and people say SFL that doesn't actually indicate which of the two they are talking about.

Is it rainbows and butterflys for drops?

or is it

Just truly self found, nothing different then regular PoE, MAYBE a reduction in masters cost, but not the game redesigned around giving you ever item drop possibly imaginable.

"

goetzjam wrote:

I think mirrors go and make the statement of "rares are the best items in the game" for PoE actually true. You can't mirror a unqiue, so if you can create copies of these insane 6T1 rare items it goes and helps that notion. I mean I think most standard players are aware of Loath Bane dagger, IMO it creates a whole another top level of rares and character progression.

It's kinda funny you use that in defence of mirrors (and eternals as was the debate).

Yes, GGG did say rares should be 'it'. The idea that a unique shouldn't be the no brainer BiS item for each slot is great. The idea that you should be able to find or craft the BiS item as a rare is great.

But what did the mirror and eternal combination do to this philosophy?

All it did was take the BiS unique that GGG wanted to avoid and replace it with the mirror/eternal crafted item. It is a rare item, yes, but if you think the philosophy was entirely based on whether the BiS item was orange or yellow, you kinda missed the point. Somewhere along the development line, GGG also missed the point of their very own philosophy.

It's even worse, than this.
In the scenario GGG wanted to avoid, the no brainer BiS unique item wouldn't ever be a universal BiS item for every build, but for some, only. Uniques (with very few atziri item exceptions) have set affixes, a unique which is the no brainer BiS item for x build is not BiS for y build.


In the scenario GGG wanted to avoid, the no brainer BiS unique item could, even if rare as hen's teeth, drop for you.

In the scenario GGG created, the no brainer BiS 'unique' (which is actually a mirrored eternal craft rare) is imprinted so it can be mirrored for x build, restored to a previous state mirrored for y build and imprinted again, restored to a previous state mirrored for z build and imprinted again, restored to a previous state mirrored for n build and imprinted again, restored to a previous state mirrored for p build and imprinted again, restored to a previous state mirrored for q build and imprinted again, restored to a previous state mirr... you get the drift.

In the scenario GGG created, the no brainer BiS 'unique' (which is actually a mirrored eternal craft rare) cannot, ever, under any circumstances, in a temp league, a permanent league, a 120M or a month of Sundays, ever be found as a drop by a player.

@TheAnuhart

Interesting breakdown. Yes its interesting how they added things into the game (mirror obviously was before eternals) that cause this affect of 1 type of item can be BiS for a lot of builds.

However, how exactly does that have to do with trading or a trade system :P

Specifically talking about temp leagues and or people that play standard for 1-2 hours at most.


Mirrors and eternals are about "legacies" or the story behind them they don't IMO have anything to do with the "little guy" Im open to hear why they do affect the little guy, especially if you can tie it in with the topic of the post :P

"

goetzjam wrote:

@TheAnuhart

Interesting breakdown. Yes its interesting how they added things into the game (mirror obviously was before eternals) that cause this affect of 1 type of item can be BiS for a lot of builds.

However, how exactly does that have to do with trading or a trade system :P

Specifically talking about temp leagues and or people that play standard for 1-2 hours at most.


Mirrors and eternals are about "legacies" or the story behind them they don't IMO have anything to do with the "little guy" Im open to hear why they do affect the little guy, especially if you can tie it in with the topic of the post :P

I actually meant to 'off topic' spoiler my reply as it is off topic to the OP even though being debated throughout the thread. I just had to add my 2 alterations to that tangent. Although it does have some on-topic value as trade-centric game design has already been brought up as on-topic.


As for how does it affect the little guy, the little guy can always drop any item within reason. In a world where the rare > unique philosophy didn't exist, the little guy could drop a unique that was the no brainer BiS item for his build. In a world where the GGG philosophy wasn't bastardised by the mirror/eternal fuck up, the little guy could drop the insane rolled BiS rare for his build. In the current world, no matter what league, the little guy can not even hope to drop the lucky BiS item for his build, it has already been crafted to a state that he will never find.

It affects the little guy more than any.

Pre eternal orbs, you actually did still have a hope of finding an item that trumped the current mirror service item. I've found several in my (fucking long) time that make pre eternal mirror items look like shit.

@TheAnuhart

It affects the mentality of finding rares morso then having an actual effect.

Now, while technically speaking a 6 T1 stat item COULD drop, those chances are much smaller then probably finding a mirror and because of that and the fact YOU can thru the process of serious crafting force RNG to make you that. So it moves part of BiS from findable to makeable, which IMO is still "ok"

"

It affects the little guy more than any.

How because they will never be able to get it? The can still bank on a shot of getting that 1 in whatever odds 6 T1 item, but they probably aren't playing in high enough maps to meet some requirements anyway (depending on what they want) So if anything the fact that they can get a mirror drop for them can enable them to get the BiS rare, even if it is a copy of another.

"

goetzjam wrote:

@TheAnuhart

It affects the mentality of finding rares morso then having an actual effect.

Now, while technically speaking a 6 T1 stat item COULD drop, those chances are much smaller then probably finding a mirror and because of that and the fact YOU can thru the process of serious crafting force RNG to make you that. So it moves part of BiS from findable to makeable, which IMO is still "ok"

"

It affects the little guy more than any.

How because they will never be able to get it? The can still bank on a shot of getting that 1 in whatever odds 6 T1 item, but they probably aren't playing in high enough maps to meet some requirements anyway (depending on what they want) So if anything the fact that they can get a mirror drop for them can enable them to get the BiS rare, even if it is a copy of another.

Now, compare all what you just said to what GGG wanted to avoid, which was the whole point of my post.

I'll remind you, the no brainer BiS ready made unique.