Player feedback on trading (both sides welcome)

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Ceri wrote:

My major gripe with trading is that both seller and buyer needs to be online at the same time. That completely kills it for me, and I suspect many others as well.

I would not call it a 'killer' on my site, but since I'm not interested in 'high end top tier rare' stuff or 'ultra-rare uniques', aka 'ultra expensive' stuff in general - I see it as 'I dont need that much what I'm looking for that I pay every demanded price'

IMHO: things like gems (where even variables like xp or even some quality dont change much on the price) or just common, generic uniques DONT NEED any bartering, ingame handshake or similar activity. All these could easily be sold without direct interaction: trading with a cargo freighter instead of a horse-drawn buggy.

@Mr_Cee

I think there is some merit to the whole common trade things that pretty much always net the same price. For example like you mentioned gems are pretty fixed on prices, if they arent a rare one they don't sell for much, but its worth nothing this is changed in beta so this example might seem bad.

Lets look at more common scenarios, even an item like

Has a huge gap in prices based off of roll, how exactly would automated trade accommodate for something like that if you think all items like it aren't worth bartering over?

I think of the handshake as more of a way to ensure only people that put forth any amount of effort will sell things, in otherwords something I've said in the past:

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I think something that isn't mentioned there is an opportunity cost, those willing to exit map or be online and play can be rewarded with a non automated system.
In an automated system anyone that can cut the price to the lowest number will be rewarded, to mean it just cheapens the whole thing by enabling anyone and everyone to easily make currency, including time not spent in the game.

@Ceri and many other users have an issue where they cannot be bothered to trade with the current system we have either because of 3rd party or because of a limitation of not being able to complete transactions as a seller because they aren't online to do so.

Its also worth mentioning I think less people have issues buying things vs selling things. Aside from sellers not being online when it shows them online, most transactions go thru smoothly from poe.trade. There are niche items that certainly isn't addressed by my suggestion but a page or two ago I displayed the steam offer system which might work in poe to help the gap of these niche items and\or enable players that cannot be online in the game to perhaps spend some extra time thru the forums\website to make a few extra sales, of course I do want that somewhat limited otherwise it could be turned into an AH type system.


@MrTrmere I wondered where you went :P

To me it seems like your first 2 points somewhat contradict eachother. You are ok with people getting more out of a system that requires a bit of investment, but at the same time are not happy with the investment required? When I read this, to me it seems more like you want it, like my suggestion to be easier to sell items by not having to use 3rd party tools, perhaps I am reading this wrong?

I'd like to hear more about ripping people off, specifically how you view them doing it and what might can be done to stop it or discourage it.

I think knowing what other people need comes from experience. If you know about other builds and playstyles you can better understand what is worth something to someone else.


So a perfect selling system in your mind is the ability to essentially do what we already have access to somewhat see? Think of it this way, you can go on poe.trade right now, input the important stats of your item (be sure to reduce the roll range a bit) and see what people are selling it for and how many are around.

A system more directly like what you describe I don't think would work. When people search for items now they want it ASAP, people hate waiting. There might be a niche for a system where people can list a WTB type thing and specific stats they need. This might actually be the answer for people that can ONLY or want to only spend a few min trying to trade some items vs creating a shop system.

This is the first time I've heard of such system I would really like to hear some more opinions or things I might be missing about it.

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Simply put, I want the time investment to be optionnal, which is currently not the case unless you want to get severely ripped off.

So you want "fast sales" to be as profitable as long term shops and somehow increase the profit of long term shops? Maybe the fact that those longterm shops can sell more items mean they can make more with investment.

The whole idea with fast sales is essentially like a pawn shop. Could you list that item and sell it on amazon or craigslist? Sure, but instead you want the fast cash option and just take it to the local pawn shop and they give you 50-60% of its value vs 80-90 % that you would have gotten by selling it yourself.

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Let's say I get extremely lucky and manage to find a 6L shavs. I am not interested in using it, so I'll try to trade it. Since its lowest price (barring fucked up corrupted versions) is at 60 exalts, I'll start trying to sell it at 40 exalts, which looks like an already very decent bargain. The only answers I'll be getting are less than 10 exalt offers, and I'll only manage to get people accepting my offer when I'm down to less than 20 or even 15 exalts.

Its been a while since I have played in standard, mainly because I cannot play without loot filter anymore. But if you think shavs is worth 60 ex (it matches the cheapest on poe.trade with a b\o) then what do you feel is the proper value of trying to sell it fast? Like what %? If you are following the method above you could get 80-90% if you just undercut the cheapest one and wait a bit if you have it listed, but if you want to get it off your hands so quickly why should you get such a high % of value when you are the one rushed to sell? Of course people try to offer scumbag offers, IMO just ignore them, but if you start at 2/3 the value of the chest you better be willing to take LESS then your starting price, thats how people view it, especially in trade chat.

I would never try and start an item at the MIN price I would take for it, almost every form of bargaining has people meet somewhere in the middle. Let say you started at 50ex (assuming no one else is spamming the same thing) someone might see that and think they could make 4-5ex profit easily off of it depending on how long they sit on it, I know people do this, especially in standard. I personally wouldn't buy it even if I had the money as I don't need the item or have the currency to "risk" on the investment. But if you start at 40ex, well below the price of the item, some people might think you are a noob that can be taken advantage of and get the price reduced even further. If someone buys your chest for 30ex, its well worth the investment to do so.

Moral of the story is that is a large ticket item, even so the amount of people online at that time, looking at trade chat and have the currency to buy that item, even in standard have to be tiny. You aren't going to sell that "quick" without vastly losing value the item has.

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Hell, some people were trying to get me to sell Vaults of Atziri at 10 chaos, when simple maths (sheer number of Vaal Vessels) tell me that it's not a fair trade (and in this case, I am 100% positive they knew what they were offering).
I am not even talking about the regret ratios you can find on the trade chat.

I think people are confused on the price of most unqiue maps, yes some people are just scumbags but again this goes after who do you think is monitoring that trade chat at the time you post. This is further indication that trade chat is pretty shit IMO, its usefulness is very small in my eyes, pretty much only useful to get or sell stuff quickly (without alt tabbing out of game)

Maybe part of the solution can be a trade board where you could post the item, similar to how people create parties in standard and just list WTB\WTS, it would essentially be a non-aids like trade chat that is more accessible to players, you have to keep in mind the amount of people that see trade 4 vs trade 1 is much lower, but even then shit is spammed so fast there unless someone is looking for something and enjoys the pain of watching it, its usefulness is limited.

All currency ratios are pretty shit, regrets are among the worst.

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1) Sure, I can use a third-party website.
2) This takes a lot of time, which comes back to what I am against : a mandatory time investment.

So if poe.trade was in the game would that be enough or the fact you have to spend time to input stats of your item makes it not acceptable?

What if they added poe.trade and allowed for "search for similar stats" it essentially would copy the stats of the item and display similar results, that would be enough?

I think this all goes into the whole "i don't know what this is worth because I don't use items like it" Players that understand stats for all sorts of builds benefit from time saved thinking about or researching pricing. I think someone posted a while ago a "beginner" guide of items to look for and stats that sell, if you'd like I could try and find it, then again it doesn't align with your idea of "work:

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What I am suggesting is to reverse the way you link people making a trade. Instead of having buyers browsing sellers, you would have sellers browsing buyers.
Everybody has some things they need and an amount of currency they are willing to spend on it.

This would improve the mid-level upgrade situation, but would probably have no inpact on the low or high end market. I understand people are willing to spend money on upgrades, at the same time when they NEED an item THEY NEED IT, they won't post saying wtb ring with 50 mana regen, 50+life and fire res, they will just search and find one. Now they might post wtb 2 stone (light+fire) ring with 50 mana regen, 70+ life, 20+chaos res and some other number of stats, then again if there were options available at the time and they had what they were wanting they could probably facilitate the trade without waiting.

I'm not saying the idea is bad or shouldn't be looked at to be added, but its seems much more niche then I think you realize.

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goetzjam wrote:

@nero

I'll try to to focus too much on the specifics, but in general do you think GGG should change the way trade works or the economy in order to cater to a problem of inflation in gear, specifically one that is pretty much exclusive for standard?

I thought it was evident is an economic problem not a trade one per se (although it would be nice to have a in game trade system, it's unfun to use the browser), but I'll put it blunt: people fear convenience in trade because right now, the inefficience of the system is the only regulator of item offer, in a post scarcity economy (yes, it's fucking Star Trek this).

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MrTremere wrote:

I'll put it even more bluntly : the current system looks like a fucking shark tank. It's great for whales and sharks, but it's certainly not someting you want to dive in if you're small fish.

People that search poe.trade for specific items or stats don't give a fuck if you are a shark, whale, fish or a fucking pirate they just want the item for the best price that they can get. No indication of what you are unless they click on the thread and see what else you have posted.

So even if small guy that post 10 leveling uniques, 5 "good" rares and some gems can still have the same chance as someone selling 100 leveling uniques, 100s of rares and no gems.

So I think you are vastly mistaken to make it that blunt as the current system and my purposed idea of adding the system into the game simply rewards players for spending such a very small amount of time to price and list their items. The bigger fish has no "listing" advantage over you only that they are willing to make a shop and for some reason you aren't.

The original thread pretty much sums it up. It feels like you don't find anything good because you don't find upgrades (late game) for the build you're playing. Trading is the best way to get upgrades.

If PoE made it so finding upgrades on the build you're playing was the best way to get upgrades, I'd have no problem with trade. It's fun, that rush of finding a good upgrade can never be replicated by just buying it.

It's why people ask for an alternate, parallel self-found league, in addition to the legacy and temp leagues. They want to find their own upgrades without trading for it. Finding gear with the right stats for your build. Finding the right unique for your build.

But since GGG is still stuck on one economy to rule them all (here's hoping the come to their senses, like they did with perma alloc., and lockstep! SFL Please!), the least they could do is provide a decent trade system. Asynchronous trade. Market price tracking, especially currency exchange rates. Put up an item for sale, and you can search a history of how much similar items sold for, fluctuations in prices, etc.

The popularity of poe.trade and procurement tell me most other players want better tools to trade. But they still don't have asynchronous trade or market price tracking - I feel those features GGG can, and should, provide.

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Druga1757 wrote:

The original thread pretty much sums it up. It feels like you don't find anything good because you don't find upgrades (late game) for the build you're playing. Trading is the best way to get upgrades.

If PoE made it so finding upgrades on the build you're playing was the best way to get upgrades, I'd have no problem with trade. It's fun, that rush of finding a good upgrade can never be replicated by just buying it.

It's why people ask for an alternate, parallel self-found league, in addition to the legacy and temp leagues. They want to find their own upgrades without trading for it. Finding gear with the right stats for your build. Finding the right unique for your build.

But since GGG is still stuck on one economy to rule them all (here's hoping the come to their senses, like they did with perma alloc., and lockstep! SFL Please!), the least they could do is provide a decent trade system. Asynchronous trade. Market price tracking, especially currency exchange rates. Put up an item for sale, and you can search a history of how much similar items sold for, fluctuations in prices, etc.

The popularity of poe.trade and procurement tell me most other players want better tools to trade. But they still don't have asynchronous trade or market price tracking - I feel those features GGG can, and should, provide.

I think everyone can agree they wouldn't mind having a smart loot style of play, the problem with self found leagues or smart loot is you get what you need much sooner as drops then you could ever wish to get with randomness.

I completely disagree with creating all of these "leagues" just to cater to everyone's wishes of playstyles. You aren't a unqiue snowflake that GGG needs to make the game work the way you (others) think. Sometimes, and in this particular case people don't know what they are asking for. Best case in point is basically you are asking for D3's loot 2.0, which IMO would be TERRIBLE for PoE.

How could a game that is based off of economy and trade like now ever compete with the feeling that a self found, loot falling from the sky of what a self found league could provide? It couldn't, if you could find every single unqiue in the game (divination cards basically doing this for us) easily why would you ever play a mode that was more painful to find loot? You simply would not. Like I said this issue is addressed with divination cards.

I don't support asynchronous trade in the way you've mentioned, only in a very limited, very controlled fashion.

If GGG added poe.trade and procurement along with some "tracking like tools" and still required player interaction for completing trades would this be ok or not?

The argument of course is as always "that is an AH why not just make it automatic" because automatic = more people doing it = inflation = no reward for doing anything other then undercutting the cheapest seller.