Legacy items are bullshit

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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RogueMage wrote:

but to manipulate them in provocative ways that shock the competitive arena.

Saying it is their intent is a far bolder claim than saying it is an effect of their actions. Sorry, but as I said earlier, a bit too tinfoil for me.

On the other hand, if we agree about the effects, how is the intent relevant?

The thing is, unless you assume that GGG is grossly incompetent (and in my morbidly cynical spells I still sometimes wonder whether this isn't true), the fact that their actions have this exact same effect again and again and again and again and again and again and again ... okay, I'll stop now ... over the course of years shows that this must be their aim.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me 47438747386438638946938469 times, well, you damn sure are trying hard to fool me aren't you?

I really don´t understand all this whining about legacies..

If you play temp leagues, legacies aren´t there, so why do you care?
If you play standard, there is no race to lvl 100, so the league is not competitive, so again, why do you care about legacies?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

My point isn't that certain items break the game. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. My point is that GGG says they break the game, leaves those item alone for previous owners, then hypocritically nerfs future Standard drops in the name of balance. They refuse to adopt a consistent policy.

It's not hypocrisy, it's a trade-off.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

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AdzPoE wrote:

Other long standing games (which PoE takes inspiration from) such as Magic the Gathering and Diablo 2 have this same system, it's marmite like PoE itself.

I personally wouldn't be playing a game like this if it weren't for these kinds of subtleties.

They make standard interesting and vibrant no matter how people feel about them and after all they don't affect challenge leagues.

I don't really see the problem the OP has or anyone else, If you like standard and want to play pvp there, get used to the fact that its like playing vintage MTG or Non ladder diablo. The rest of the time it's going to be the same as every other league minus the challenges and league specific drops.

A good solution would be renaming Standard into Legacy, and opening up a new default permanent league where all future temporary league characters will go. It would be awful to remake all my characters again and so on, but if it is a one time thing and there will be none new legacies made, it would be a nice solution.

That way those who want to play an imbalanced league can, and those that want to get beyond a3m also have their place to play. Everybody wins, at the downside of an even more divided community.

Really don't like this idea as it deprives a certain group from future items for no reason.

I don't really see how peoples legacy items existing affects anyone else's pve content experience in anyway shape or form and I personally like the legacy format for pvp as it adds flavour, take that away and it makes this game bland tasteless and without any surprises. No thanks.

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Starxsword wrote:

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I don't really see the problem the OP has or anyone else, If you like standard and want to play pvp there, get used to the fact that its like playing vintage MTG or Non ladder diablo. The rest of the time it's going to be the same as every other league minus the challenges and league specific drops.

I don't know why you use Magic the Gathering as an example, but Vintage is almost never played for this reason. Even then, Vintage has many cards that are restricted to 1, because of how exceptionally powerful some of the cards are. I see this as a very bad thing. No player will play against a competitive Vintage deck using a competitive Standard deck, since winning is not possible.

I use it because GGG themselves have used it as an example of some of their inspiration behind PoE.

It's also impossible in the setting of PoE for a challenge league character to pvp against a standard league character, once a merge happens the challenge league character becomes a standard league character where the challenge league player knows his character will be at a disadvantage to the standard league player's characters (Much like if you use one years worth of magic cards versus the whole repertoire of magic cards).

People shouldn't complain about legacies, rather work towards owning some themselves. There are a tonne of people who's raison d'être is to collect items like cards, i don't see any reason those people should be punished.

Read that all the way through.. Lemme bump your thoroughly thought out thread out the door real quick.

#1, political correctness sucks; if you're so stuck up that you can't take someone saying something you don't like for ANY reason you're immature, and the world should not revolve around the immature. YES, I am aware that we live in a pathetically PC world; it sickens me, if I were older than 27 I'd say "back in my day people had thicker skin.." Sadly, seems I'm one of few that have had the thick skin gene passed down from the generations above; a gene which sorely needs to be repopulated. -- Your feelings got hurt? Boo hoo, why did the words spoken matter to you in the first place?

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#2, legacy items are the shiznit! Main reason as follows; while the game(as many others) is progressing, by that I mean becoming more balanced, there are things that will have to be changed to round everything out. As far as PoE goes, with the passive tree that GGG(specifically the team that developed the tree itself, awesome job on this) has the ability to make tweaks to for balancing purposes(as well as content upgrades) they are able to iron out kinks n smooth out wrinkles, so to speak, without major over-haul of the items(which is big, because, while changing items is easy[stop thinking about uniques] remember that there are a great number of modifiers for rare items that would be legacy[and some are, i.e. IQuantity]) So, by tweaking the tree for most of the balances made they are able to leave most of the items alone; the *FEW* that survive after a change, being made legacy, become a different class of item all-together. This essentially creates a whole new tier of item; some valued for better modifiers, some valued for different graphics, what ever the reason.. They are valued higher, thus making them a collector item. Which is a very cool thing in a game such as this, why you may ask? -- As the years go by, providing PoE survives(and I think it will) the legacy items will become more and more elusive. Those who wish to have them for any reason, power, looks, or, just to collect will have to pay more and more for the older the item as time goes by. Again, why is this good? Investment! Those who hold onto items, or start collecting early, or have old characters and/or have played for a long time AND have kept their original gear get a kick back that grows as time goes by.

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#3, Was gon say something else, but, my short term memory is shat.. 2bContinued I'm sure.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Nerfing op uniques serves a desired purpose, allowing legacy versions to remain serves a desired purpose, allowing legacy uniques to continue to drop does not. There are op, good, bad and meh OOP items, they are not just overpowered, second generation Rainbowstrides are worse than what drops now, I have race reward kaoms signs and blackhearts, hardly op, legacy chin sols are shit, current generation chin sols are actually good.

The rest of your reply had little or nothing to do with the question I asked. I guess it's fair to point out there are items which have been buffed, too... but again, those buffs were by temporary league standards. So you haven't really challenged nor answered my question. Why do temporary league balance standards decide which items are OOPed in Standard?

its not temp league balance standards, its game balance standards, thats why they apply to standard league drops, the reason they dont apply to legacy items in standard was explained in the post you are responding to.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

But the biggest downside, that I hate about standard? Legacies. I myself have iiq gear and iiq gem and 40% coil and so on. And how is that fair? I was barely in time to get these strong things, but if I was a newbie, I doubt I would play PoE, at all. Why bother, when others are getting loot at 10x your clearing speed and 2x the drop amount? You have 1/20th their buying power, for the same amount of effort and time input. And you can't catch up to them yourself, you are at the mercy of someone who owns legacies, to trade them away.

It would not matter so much if economy was not so important, but it is, with the horrid droprates. And it is going to be worse than ever with the economy coming to skill tree.

But that is just my perspective.

are these items fair?



these are not legacy, a new player does not have these, can probably buy any power changing legacy unique in the game for cheaper than he can mirror items like these. At the point you can mirror a piece of gear, you can mirror any legacy mod rare or buy a legacy unique/gem. IIQ gems are worth an exalt, a mirror is worth about 215 exalts.


http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/515441


look through this thread, you think if the legacy stats in here were rerolled to current stats that standard league would become 'fair' for a new player? you want to make a case to me that a new player today entering standard today playing along side other people who have over 6000 exalts in their stash would have a fair economic experience?


Realise that it can never be fair, that your IIQ gem and your 40% coil are meaningless. A new player, if they knew what they were doing, could grind this game for 2 days and buy an IIQ gem and a 40% coil. Rerolling legacy items to current values would move the slider 1 inch along a 10 lightyear bar that ends in a sign post that reads "fair". You would achieve all the bad things that come with nerfing legacy gear and would completely fail to achieve in any shape or form the "fair" league you are striving for. The reason for this is that standard is a perm league that has been running for over 2 years, it would take a new player 2 years to achieve what people there have achieved, at which point hes still 2 years behind because now the original guys have been there for 4 years. The only way to make it fair would be to wipe the league and start again at the precise moment that new player starts playing...

do you see where Im going with this? We need a wipe to make things fair, GGG know this, and they have made a system where they have an entirely new, wiped server 3 times a year for everyone to start over again in to achieve exactly what you are saying.

Truth is, anyone who cant afford legacy gear and mirrored gear in standard, they are going to start a fresh league day 1 and within 2 minutes the same sort of people who can afford those things in standard will be twice as far ahead of them. By the end of day 2 those players will have 30x their wealth and be 3 times further in character progression, by the end of the 4th week those people will have characters leveled beyond the point that new guy will probably ever be able to level a character in a year and will own more wealth in that league than that guy will ever own at 1 time no matter how long he plays. If this isnt true, then hes the very rare sort of new player who will be able to afford any legacy or mirrored gear in standard league as soon as he finds his stride. Thats the truth of the situation, if you cant hit lvl100 and own 500 exalts in a temp league you were never going to be in the running for anything and it didnt matter at all if people have legacy gear or started the game 2 years before you did, you were never going to measure up and maintain an equal footing. I dont measure up, I have 12 exalts in my stash right now, I dont have lvl100 characters, got nothing to do with legacy items, legacy mods, time invested, all that stuff is completely irrelevant. We can start a fresh, fair league tomorrow and people will be ahead of me from minute 1, the same people who are ahead of me in standard league, same people that given any length of time will always be ahead of me in this game. I dont kid myself that the extra 32% crit multi on their amulet is responsible for that.

That was the biggest eye opener yet for me. I don't see how any legacy can possibly influence the game as much as those two mirrored weapons. Geez. Those are insane.

Every legacy has its own niche. For example, quill rain does wonders if you get a way to cast things like explosive arrow or any spell with CoC plus an attack to trigger it, as it has biggest attack speed and those spells doesn't lose damage from negative affix that quill rain has. On other way, tabula rasa doesn't give any stat, neither armor nor health but is a valuable unique due to 6-Link white sockets. This allow players to make powerful 6-Link combos otherwise forbidden for most players.

As people should notice, legacy items are only the iceberg edge, as you may also run rares and even magics with great efficiency. Why? Because every item synergizes with passive tree choices and with such a big passive tree plus lots of RNG, players need to test every piece of their build every time. With legacy items is no different, adapting them to your build may be a great challenge but its worth.

In resume, they are NOT bullshit at all.

legacy items are only an issue for those who can't afford them.