Legacy items are bullshit

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Nurvus wrote:

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SaiyanZ wrote:

Please let me know which legacies let people farm at 10x the speed of non-legacies. I feel like I'm missing out on something.

If it's 1.5x speed it's already too much.
If it doesn't make you farm faster, but makes it considerably easier to guarantee your survival, it's already too much.

There doesn't need to be a ridiculous difference.
If they are broken, fix or remove them.
If they're fine, leave them be.

The whole philosophy behind Legacy items is purely terrible design.

Other long standing games (which PoE takes inspiration from) such as Magic the Gathering and Diablo 2 have this same system, it's marmite like PoE itself.

I personally wouldn't be playing a game like this if it weren't for these kinds of subtleties.

They make standard interesting and vibrant no matter how people feel about them and after all they don't affect challenge leagues.

I don't really see the problem the OP has or anyone else, If you like standard and want to play pvp there, get used to the fact that its like playing vintage MTG or Non ladder diablo. The rest of the time it's going to be the same as every other league minus the challenges and league specific drops.

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AdzPoE wrote:

Other long standing games (which PoE takes inspiration from) such as Magic the Gathering and Diablo 2 have this same system, it's marmite like PoE itself.

I personally wouldn't be playing a game like this if it weren't for these kinds of subtleties.

They make standard interesting and vibrant no matter how people feel about them and after all they don't affect challenge leagues.

I don't really see the problem the OP has or anyone else, If you like standard and want to play pvp there, get used to the fact that its like playing vintage MTG or Non ladder diablo. The rest of the time it's going to be the same as every other league minus the challenges and league specific drops.

A good solution would be renaming Standard into Legacy, and opening up a new default permanent league where all future temporary league characters will go. It would be awful to remake all my characters again and so on, but if it is a one time thing and there will be none new legacies made, it would be a nice solution.

That way those who want to play an imbalanced league can, and those that want to get beyond a3m also have their place to play. Everybody wins, at the downside of an even more divided community.

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I don't really see the problem the OP has or anyone else, If you like standard and want to play pvp there, get used to the fact that its like playing vintage MTG or Non ladder diablo. The rest of the time it's going to be the same as every other league minus the challenges and league specific drops.

I don't know why you use Magic the Gathering as an example, but Vintage is almost never played for this reason. Even then, Vintage has many cards that are restricted to 1, because of how exceptionally powerful some of the cards are. I see this as a very bad thing. No player will play against a competitive Vintage deck using a competitive Standard deck, since winning is not possible.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

A good solution would be renaming Standard into Legacy, and opening up a new default permanent league where all future temporary league characters will go. It would be awful to remake all my characters again and so on, but if it is a one time thing and there will be none new legacies made, it would be a nice solution.

Dream on, the onslaught of Legacies has only increased with recent patches, and will no doubt continue to mount in the wake of the extensive changes planned for the release of Act 4.

One major fallout of this mammoth thread is seeing the presumptions of the temp league "balance" advocates exposed to debate and dissection. My own bias should be obvious, but I harbor an old-school contempt for OP Legacies, which I currently regard as a necessary evil that counter-balances GGG's scorched earth assaults on the Skill Tree.

The myth I think has been thoroughly debunked by this thread is the assumption that GGG's nerfs are aimed at achieving "balanced" gameplay. To the contrary, the targets of the nerf hammer are not the most OP builds, but the most popular. GGG's main concern is to prevent a small number of cookie-cutter builds from dominating the competitive ladders. That is why they intercede in ways that sabotage powerful builds rather than tweaking them back into balance. Doing so shocks the competitive arena, and forces players to explore new builds. The result GGG is after is not so much synergistic diversity of skills and builds, but a contentious variety of fast-paced elite builds.

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RogueMage wrote:

The myth I think has been thoroughly debunked by this thread is the assumption that GGG's nerfs are aimed at achieving "balanced" gameplay. To the contrary, the targets of the nerf hammer are not the most OP builds, but the most popular. GGG's main concern is to prevent a small number of cookie-cutter builds from dominating the competitive ladders. That is why they intercede in ways that sabotage powerful builds rather than tweaking them back into balance. Doing so shocks the competitive arena, and forces players to explore new builds. The result GGG is after is not so much synergistic diversity of skills and builds, but a contentious variety of fast-paced elite builds.

I don't think that's been thoroughly debunked at all. Again, too tinfoil for me... If anything, I am not inclined to believe GGG's nerfing has adhered to any consistent policy whatsoever.

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Shieldbreaker wrote:

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AdzPoE wrote:

Other long standing games (which PoE takes inspiration from) such as Magic the Gathering and Diablo 2 have this same system, it's marmite like PoE itself.

I personally wouldn't be playing a game like this if it weren't for these kinds of subtleties.

They make standard interesting and vibrant no matter how people feel about them and after all they don't affect challenge leagues.

I don't really see the problem the OP has or anyone else, If you like standard and want to play pvp there, get used to the fact that its like playing vintage MTG or Non ladder diablo. The rest of the time it's going to be the same as every other league minus the challenges and league specific drops.

A good solution would be renaming Standard into Legacy, and opening up a new default permanent league where all future temporary league characters will go. It would be awful to remake all my characters again and so on, but if it is a one time thing and there will be none new legacies made, it would be a nice solution.

That way those who want to play an imbalanced league can, and those that want to get beyond a3m also have their place to play. Everybody wins, at the downside of an even more divided community.

There will always be balance changes and new content and skills. What makes you think the technical difficulties of locating and rerolling legacy items would go away? Your new league would have legacies in it after the first major patch folowing 2.0.

The meta is always changing. Look at Ungil's Gauche: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Ungil%27s_Gauche. It started with +12% dual wield block. It got changed to +20% dual wield block. Then it got changed back to +12% dual wield block. So which legacy version is "the one that breaks the game"? There are calls to change Koam's back to the original life value. That request has merit and they might just do that. You don't know what the future meta will be. If they took the realm down for a week to rreroll all the leagcy versions and then buff the new version back to legacy numbers, you just wasted a whole lot of my playing time for nothing.

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mark1030 wrote:

The meta is always changing. Look at Ungil's Gauche: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Ungil%27s_Gauche. It started with +12% dual wield block. It got changed to +20% dual wield block. Then it got changed back to +12% dual wield block. So which legacy version is "the one that breaks the game"?

It's very debatable. But what isn't debatable is GGG's answer to that question: both the first (at the time) and the second (at the time). You can argue whether they were right or not, but you can't argue they didn't answer.

My point isn't that certain items break the game. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. My point is that GGG says they break the game, leaves those item alone for previous owners, then hypocritically nerfs future Standard drops in the name of balance. They refuse to adopt a consistent policy.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

The meta is always changing. Look at Ungil's Gauche: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Ungil%27s_Gauche. It started with +12% dual wield block. It got changed to +20% dual wield block. Then it got changed back to +12% dual wield block. So which legacy version is "the one that breaks the game"?

It's very debatable. But what isn't debatable is GGG's answer to that question: both the first (at the time) and the second (at the time). You can argue whether they were right or not, but you can't argue they didn't answer.

It's a good example of my claim: that GGG's intent is not to fine-tune the balance of OP Uniques, but to manipulate them in provocative ways that shock the competitive arena. From a balance perspective, pumping up Ungil's from 12% chance to block to 20% (40% + 15% when dual-wield), was a blatant come-on to tempt lvl-28 PvP players with an OP new toy. After that ran its course, GGG put block on the back burner and reverted Ungil's back down to 12%. If it had been a balancing trial aimed at fine-tuning Ungil's block rate, they'd have tweaked the third version to something between 12% and 20% block. But once Ungi's served its seasonal purpose, they moved on and tossed it in the Legacy bin.

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RogueMage wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

The meta is always changing. Look at Ungil's Gauche: http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Ungil%27s_Gauche. It started with +12% dual wield block. It got changed to +20% dual wield block. Then it got changed back to +12% dual wield block. So which legacy version is "the one that breaks the game"?

It's very debatable. But what isn't debatable is GGG's answer to that question: both the first (at the time) and the second (at the time). You can argue whether they were right or not, but you can't argue they didn't answer.

It's a good example of my claim: that GGG's intent is not to fine-tune the balance of OP Uniques,

At a minimum balance is their official rationale.

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RogueMage wrote:

but to manipulate them in provocative ways that shock the competitive arena.

Saying it is their intent is a far bolder claim than saying it is an effect of their actions. Sorry, but as I said earlier, a bit too tinfoil for me.

On the other hand, if we agree about the effects, how is the intent relevant?

Didn't GGG explicitly state they wanted to regularly change up the metagame to keep it feeling fresh? Not that it has anything to do with legacy items.

Yes legacies are in some cases stupid OP, but if you haven't noticed Standard league is literally a second rate citizen to the 4 month temp leagues and HC. All characters end up in Standard eventually, dumping their gear and currency with reckless abandon. The economy was doomed from day 1 because of Mirrors, its death accelerated by Eternal orbs, its death embraced by AXN, lord of the mirror service.