Legacy items are bullshit

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goetzjam wrote:

It was a good post, the reason for legacy items can best be pointed at D3's global reduction of attackspeed on existing item, I feel like the outrage of finding an item only later to discover its been reduced is a terrible feeling in an ARPG which is heavily loot based.

Just one thought: we already have outrages because of the passive tree changes. Yes, people hate change, but in a game like this, it's a must. Shouldn't we embrace changes in items too? We sacrifice some balance options in the name of a permanence that it's fake anyway.

Also: loot is important in Path of Exile, but it's not that good as it could, and people play the game not because of it (everyone knows how unrewarding it can feel), they tolerate it just because the rest of the game is good.

I would suggest not playing a legacy league if that's something you don't like. You should be happy they exist that you're even able to buy them. Plus it wouldn't be fair to take away people's hard earned item, they worked for it, good for them to keep it. It's like walking to a car show and complaining everyone has a car.

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Jaxxxson wrote:

I would suggest not playing a legacy league if that's something you don't like. You should be happy they exist that you're even able to buy them. Plus it wouldn't be fair to take away people's hard earned item, they worked for it, good for them to keep it. It's like walking to a car show and complaining everyone has a car.

An indirect way to destroy the value of an item is using the passive tree or changing mechanics. Like the Awakening is going to do. The Leech Changes are going to depreciate existing Acuities, for example. In that sense, GGG is being unfair to everyone that hard earned their items.

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mark1030 wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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mark1030 wrote:

You forgot the tldr: i don't like legacy items.

You didn't convince me. I think they are fine. They don't exist in temp leagues, and that's where I spend most of my time.

If you don't care, why bother posting?

If you do care, why point out how you avoid their influence?

So you only want opinions that agree with you to reply? If you only want +1 replies, why did you bother posting?

This argument you think you're making doesn't make sense (oh man, that reminds me of another argument you thought you were making in my thread about EB! I'm sensing a pattern).

Scrotie never said he wants agreement only; he wants agreement or reasoned disagreement. Your entire disagreement is "it doesn't exist in the economies I play in". How does that make any sense as an argument?

jaxxxson's argument, on the other hand, is reasonable. A lot of people don't agree, but it's clearly not something Scrotie would say "why would you bother putting that in this thread?" to, because it's a valid opinion. If you have a legacy item and you *want* the "engine" replaced after a new "engine" is made, you use a divine orb on it. You still make the "broken engine" available to yourself and possibly others, but you possibly paid money to get it the way it was, and someone changing it out from under you wouldn't be cool. Whereas Scrotie is saying that the makers should issue a global forced recall, possibly because the engine even existing is a danger to those around you (I may be taking this metaphor too far, but forced recalls do happen because engines become known to randomly explode, and legacy items *do* affect the surrounding economy). Which is also a valid opinion, though one *I* disagree with. I like legacy items for the same reason jaxxxson does.

You, on the other hand, don't have an argument in favor of legacies at all. You were merely stating your apathy, and frankly I think your post should be deleted for being off-topic.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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Jaxxxson wrote:

I would suggest not playing a legacy league if that's something you don't like. You should be happy they exist that you're even able to buy them. Plus it wouldn't be fair to take away people's hard earned item, they worked for it, good for them to keep it. It's like walking to a car show and complaining everyone has a car.

An indirect way to destroy the value of an item is using the passive tree or changing mechanics. Like the Awakening is going to do. The Leech Changes are going to depreciate existing Acuities, for example. In that sense, GGG is being unfair to everyone that hard earned their items.

I agree with this, but two wrongs don't make a right. There's no reason to be *doubly* unfair about something just because you are already being singly unfair about that same something.

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NeroNoah wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

It was a good post, the reason for legacy items can best be pointed at D3's global reduction of attackspeed on existing item, I feel like the outrage of finding an item only later to discover its been reduced is a terrible feeling in an ARPG which is heavily loot based.

Just one thought: we already have outrages because of the passive tree changes. Yes, people hate change, but in a game like this, it's a must. Shouldn't we embrace changes in items too? We sacrifice some balance options in the name of a permanence that it's fake anyway.

Also: loot is important in Path of Exile, but it's not that good as it could, and people play the game not because of it (everyone knows how unrewarding it can feel), they tolerate it just because the rest of the game is good.

Except for people knew the tree would change and still know that. They don't however expect items to be changed that they had previously found or traded for.

I feel on the border here with legacy items, they don't really affect me, but at the same time I can see why people want to preserve the rolls on items they had.

The rest of the game might be good, but if you took away loot and anyone could have anything would it matter? Hell yes it would, the rolls, links, colors of an item matters a lot. As such no change should be retroactive to nerf existing items, if they want to start with 2.0 going forward with "items that drop from this point forward will be updated whenever we rebalance them" but as far as changing existing items, never going to happen.

Additional thoughts: people expecting their items (I would say builds) to remain the same are a hazard to balance. They will lobby against any change, be good or evil. It's hard to have good feedback on game changes when people are adamantly against it.

Anyway, not that I care about Legacy, really (self found/low economic involvement), but it affects how I play indirectly when the passive tree is changed because of a item that it's too strong and people won't accept a nerf.

Also, Legacy items are really expensive mistakes for GGG. People just get pissed off at their existence. It would be better if they didn't exist, people would complain too, but at least changes wouldn't be perceived as creating gaps between haves and haves not.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It's like if a workplace had a policy of "hey guys, I'm not saying you can't tell racist jokes, but for Pete's sake don't tell them where any non-white folk can hear you." It oozes a hypocrisy the other two options lack.

You're so racist you can't even see how you're bringing racism into everything.

Legacy items serve a purpose of showing what PoE used to be. They're the only stable things in a constantly changing game. They're the actual legendary objects that so often get referenced or are the main focal point in pretty much any fantasy story.

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Idioticus wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It's like if a workplace had a policy of "hey guys, I'm not saying you can't tell racist jokes, but for Pete's sake don't tell them where any non-white folk can hear you." It oozes a hypocrisy the other two options lack.

You're so racist you can't even see how you're bringing racism into everything.

Let's start off by revising your hyperbolic "everything" to "a completely unrelated topic." Because not everything, obviously.

With that edit, you might have a point. I could have used a number of other different analogies. For example, "hey guys, I'm not telling you not to tell dead baby jokes, but for Pete's sake don't tell them where the mothers can hear you." If my choice offends you, I urge you to replace what I said with something which doesn't, yet still gets the concept across.

You're free to speculate on my taste regarding this, but for the record, I find racist jokes reprehensible regardless of who is in earshot.

Hopefully this can be the last post discussing racism in this thread.

On topic, I see no reason why gear is any more deserving of "unchangingness" than skill gems. Why do those change retroactively instead of going legacy? Truth is, the proper place for rememberance of what once was is the wiki, not the game itself.

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pneuma wrote:

All of this is true, but legacies are only a symptom: Standard is the core bullshit.

An ever-changing world (and passive trees and items and skills and enemies) doesn't mesh with the concept of a character lasting forever.

I'm pretty sure we all know why GGG isn't ever going to change this.

GGG's self-indulgence in mucking around with everything but Legacies is what makes them seem like such an outrage. But once you accept their terms of engagement, a new challenge emerges:

What will it take to survive the next patch?

When a dev can casually eviscerate just about anything your character relies on, what defense do you have against that? Just one, it seems: Legacies, the sole untouchable, sacrosanct path to immortal exile. Against the impassive bedrock of Legacies, GGG has just one insidious tactic they can deploy: power creep. Remember when Kaom's Heart was insufferably OP? When every bow but Lionseye was garbage? When bloody headgear was de riguer for the hordes of shirtsleeve Duelists? All traces of that infamous reign are now buried beneath a mudslide of crit-encrusted dps, but the once-coveted vices remain procurable for those who still find them handsome. While they may never again be graced by the next ill-fated BOTW, they will sustain your faith through as many plagues of nerfs as you care to endure.