Legacy items are bullshit

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Of course the natural argument is why invest that much into defense when I can invest that into offense and just kill faster, thats one thing that was hurt by this change.

...hence the ability to convert defense into offense with the new trigger gems (and Tempest Shield)?

...which I found to be pretty much worthless without using Legacy Facebreakers to compensate for the anemic damage of the counter-attack gems. Aside from that particular build, I couldn't come up with any viable endgame use for those trigger gems at all.

Well, if you're looking at counterattacks as base damage, they do border on anemic. Charan's "St Drongo" build can solo low maps on counterattacks alone, but I doubt that translates up forever.

But if you look at counterattacks as added damage, a supplement rather than a replacement, then I wouldn't consider them anemic at all.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

...if you look at counterattacks as added damage, a supplement rather than a replacement, then I wouldn't consider them anemic at all.

Problem with that scenario is that you need a high block chance to trigger the counter-attack gems. With a build like that it's very difficult to boost your base damage high enough to make the counter-strike gems worthwhile, even as a supplement. That's why I resorted to Legacy Facebreakers and could find no viable substitute.

legacy items are fine, the current balanced game is in the leagues where legacy items dont exist, play the leagues or play a imbalanced version of the game, not just imbalanced by legacy items, imbalanced by legacy wealth acquired by legacy vendor recipes, imbalanced by time, imbalanced by designed, on purpose, because the game is more fun that way.

the entire premise of potentially personally offensive flavour text being in any way comparable to legacy uniques is just absurd tbh, this thread is based on bullshit.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

the entire premise of potentially personally offensive flavour text being in any way comparable to legacy uniques is just absurd tbh, this thread is based on bullshit.

It depends on whether you think item design is more important than political correctness. If you think being PC is more important, then you can imagine going back and fixing potentially offensive text in situations where you wouldn't fix item mods.

Me? I think gamecrafting is more important than avoiding offending people.

game crafting is important, not offending people with trivial flavour text is just a given, theres no reason why you would put it in your game or leave it in your game.

Pursuing competitive game balance has positives and negatives, thats why we have a temp league and a perm league where competitive game balance can be put first on the agenda in the temps and not in the perm league. Standard by its nature can never be a competitive environment so it suits its natural state to make this a place where you leave the game free of the negatives of such balance where its appropriate and brings positive things to the table. Temp leagues are by nature competitive so you prioritize competitive, meta shifting balances there.

Legacy items make the game more interesting, they make trade more interesting, make people playing for a long time and having things that grow in value, become exclusive a thing, allow people to keep what they have worked for where meta shift and competitive balanced called for them to be removed. Anywhere you have collectors, antiques, curiosities, these scenes are made what they are by out of print, out of production pieces, by something that increases in rarity of over time through scarcity. Thats what drives them, makes them interesting. Its not that standard doesnt matter, it matters a great deal, its just that competitive game balance and meta shifting do not take priority there. It has its own priorities that are just as important to the game and take precedence over such balances in that environment.

If you want a truly balanced, fair, competitive game environment then play in a temp league where that is possible. It will never be possible in the permanent legacy league, should never be possible because that would mean removing its very nature, a perm league. IIQ was broken? Yes, and if you remove it from standard, the gems, the items, what about the vast wealth accumulated by those who played with it in standard for over a year? Remove that too? If you dont you have not made the league "fair" or "balanced", if you do remove that wealth thats called a wipe, a fresh ladder, thats not a perm ladder, if you want a wipe and back to the current balanced game without the repercussions of the past then go play a wiped ladder, thats the reason they have ladders.

A big +1 to Snorkle. A game can't necessarily be all things to all people, but why not try? Because theory is not a good enough reason imo.

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davidnn5 wrote:

A big +1 to Snorkle. A game can't necessarily be all things to all people, but why not try? Because theory is not a good enough reason imo.

Yeah his reply actually goes down to the core.

They can cater to multiple types of people with the current legacy system, while it doesn't solve the issue that everyone isn't happy its the best they can do with the playerbase they have now.

Again I have to wait until I can get on the other computer to view the tree, but I think if you didn't go into the templar area and got some of the other nodes going to ranger you could have went acro\phase and very high block and still have "ok" damage nodes.

The issue wasn't IMO necessarily block on the left side of the tree, although they had a good amount its that block overall is extremely strong and it was all over the place, making it too easy to get.

Did they have to nerf unqiue block chance across the board if they made the tree changes? Probably not they wanted to hit it from every direction to make it a higher investment, problem is caster spell block was still pretty strong in 1.3, but required much more investment to make it work.

In the future GGG needs to be careful about block and other mechanics that completely mitigate large portions of damage, especially ones that are passive.

Hmm. A Howard Moskowitz style, balance isn't for everyone argument. Using my own tricks against me, eh, snorkle?

However, I do have a question: if Standard is indeed a league where balance is not a concern, then how do you justify the practice of nerfing Standard uniques which haven't dropped yet because they are considered overpowered according to temporary league standards?

I mean, so you want to create an "out-of-print" (OOP) items market. No problem there. And you don't really care about balance. Well, that's alien to me, but okay. But why make the OOP list a rogue's gallery of balance failures unfit for temporary league use? Why not have some of those imbalanced items continue to drop in Standard, in their full imbalanced glory? Why not have some OOP items which are merely good (or perhaps even bad), instead of just the overpowered?

I feel that these two categories, the overpowered and the ideal OOP list, do not coincidentally align with such perfection that each member of one set is a member of the other. And that the decision to marry the two was mired in - you guessed it - bullshit.

Quill Rain's never been nerfed. It's got demand. Let's make that shit stop dropping, so people can hoard and trade their discontinued Quill Rains.

@ScrotieMcB

Its not that GGG doesn't balance at all for standard its that balance is secondary to technical limitations that GGG had when the legacy unqiue thing became a situation.

Either way you need to stop beating this horse to death everything that has needed to be said about this really have already been said. The better way to direct your thread should have been "legacy items are bullshit, can we stop making more of them"? Instead now we have a circle jerk of a discussion that will accomplish pretty much nothing.