Legacy items are bullshit

Well this threads evolved into the typical legacy items are bullshit with the same arguments used over and over.

Just wanted to say the typical solutions and problems won't magically go away. As i've said before you can't change people rolls on items in an ARPG, just not a good idea ever.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I feel fixing the legacy item problem would be a "recapture" mechanic. By which I mean a lot of previously quit players would return to the game.

But I also feel nerfing existing legacy items would cause some players to quit.

This is why GGG should make a point of buffing things back to legacy levels in instances where it doesn't hurt much.

For instance, I don't really understand why we couldn't have the old Silverbranch back. What am I missing?

Racing.

The old Silverbranch is a good example of two issues with PoE.

First you have that this is an aRPG loot finder where finding awesome gear, or not, is key, the RNG.

With that you have racing where the RNG element is frowned upon, listen to racers moan, it's almost as if they want to race in a completely different genre of game.

Secondly you have that the core game is universal with only additions and no limitations, with very few exceptions. Races have added mods, temp leagues have added mods but other than that one(?) time that Kaom's Heart, Prismatic Rings and Onyx Amulets, iirc, didn't drop in new leagues, what drops in standard, drops in temp league, drops in race.

Silverbranch was seen as too powerful with a +2 mod for such an early item in a race (the only +2 early bow (item even?)) that if blessed by RNG would walk you to victory in a race, particularly with poison arrow.

So, it was nerfed for new drops, everywhere.

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goetzjam wrote:

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RogueMage wrote:

Here's my 1.2 Marauder sword & shield build with 34% Chance to Block:

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgEAxthYYz38jM_2SF8_f-PzBsEE458x-6C0eWgnL_uqC2HvDuRReA28n1ivqW6krDbobEa18vIvZKM6UnJsbqo1kqgYVEkaVTJ-DjwyCUrIX5jYvWoeecBhIZ_LWW3SIQY5hO8S4c8yVw3u2ZuDourM25HO3B1T34tPu-1Y26yv9zKE2eeRcqllTW5pw4asqnzZFFLEuL6nWfPyWiftR37V-MAar6L8S72BkFVmnhDwbBaZK6eE-tISvIcZGjh-4jbpgFapleNqT31RYA==

And here's what that build had to pass up, about 30% additional HP and DPS (without block):

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgEAxthYYz38jM_2SF8_f-PBBOOfMft5aCcvC2HvDngNvJ9Yr6lupKw26GxGtfLyL2SjOlJybG6qNZKoGFRJGlUyfg48MglKyF-Y_o_YvWoeYSGfy4qvWW1N49IhhO8S4ZARzzKmV1cNm4Oi6oLkMZ7M25HOU9-LT7vtWNuQdPcyhNnnrnKpZU1uaeRRrKp82RRSxLi-p1nz8lon7Ud-1fjAGq-i_Eu9gZBVEPBsFpkrp4QSvIcZGjjsODrYfLst0sWK8B8Es6IAFE0CcQ==

I can't get the tree to work on this machine, if I remember I will find this post and reply tomorrow when I can view that tree.

Finally got a chance to open that tree.

You invested 15 points into block, not 18 or whatever you said you did.

It was 34% chance to block like you said.

But you also got 135% increased defenses from shields with that. And also all res when wearing a shield, make no mistake those shield nodes in 1.2 were actually pretty good point for point.

What shield\other pieces of gear were you using to support your investment in block.

Also as far as I am concerned from a balance perspective 34% block (especially if used to convert to spell block) is easily comparable to 30% life nodes on the tree.

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

I feel fixing the legacy item problem would be a "recapture" mechanic. By which I mean a lot of previously quit players would return to the game.

But I also feel nerfing existing legacy items would cause some players to quit.

This is why GGG should make a point of buffing things back to legacy levels in instances where it doesn't hurt much.

For instance, I don't really understand why we couldn't have the old Silverbranch back. What am I missing?

Racing.

The old Silverbranch is a good example of two issues with PoE.

First you have that this is an aRPG loot finder where finding awesome gear, or not, is key, the RNG.

With that you have racing where the RNG element is frowned upon, listen to racers moan, it's almost as if they want to race in a completely different genre of game.

Secondly you have that the core game is universal with only additions and no limitations, with very few exceptions. Races have added mods, temp leagues have added mods but other than that one(?) time that Kaom's Heart, Prismatic Rings and Onyx Amulets, iirc, didn't drop in new leagues, what drops in standard, drops in temp league, drops in race.

Silverbranch was seen as too powerful with a +2 mod for such an early item in a race (the only +2 early bow (item even?)) that if blessed by RNG would walk you to victory in a race, particularly with poison arrow.

So, it was nerfed for new drops, everywhere.

You know the thread that legacy Kaom's wouldn't be so bad now, because of how base life ave life nodes have changed?
So I'm going to start off by saying Silverbranch never should have been legacied in the first place. The real problem was Poison Arrow being too strong at low levels, a problem they had to fix the right way later despite the Silverbranch nerf.

Second, bringing the old Silverbranch now wouldn't destroy racing. Poison Arrow isn't the early-game beast it used to be, so it's not like you can just slap it in a +2 item and boom, instant race win. Not anymore.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Finally got a chance to open that tree.

You invested 15 points into block, not 18 or whatever you said you did.

It was 34% chance to block like you said.

But you also got 135% increased defenses from shields with that. And also all res when wearing a shield, make no mistake those shield nodes in 1.2 were actually pretty good point for point.

What shield\other pieces of gear were you using to support your investment in block.

Also as far as I am concerned from a balance perspective 34% block (especially if used to convert to spell block) is easily comparable to 30% life nodes on the tree.

Thanks for taking the time to check out my patch 1.2 sword & shield Marauder build. I ran that build with a Perandus shield, which at that time added 40% block chance, for a total of 74% block. As a shield, Perandus has only 42 Evasion and I took US, so the 135% increased defenses from shields was worthless. I also used a Stone of Lahzwar, giving me 37% spell block.

In the second build I dropped all block nodes in favor of taking Increased Life and Physical Damage nodes, along with extra resist nodes to cover the loss of resist from shields. That would have increased my HP and DPS by about 30%, a significant amount for a melee fighter with less than 3.5K life and 5K dps. The build used melee Puncture, before it was nerfed into Trap bait, and Spectral Throw with knockback to punish foes with max bleed damage. This build could easily solo mid-level maps, with a slow but safe clear speed. But without the 74% block, it would have been quickly swarmed and slaughtered.

I think most players would agree that this build refutes your claim that block was a cheap and cheezy overpowered investment that deserved to be nerfed into oblivion. At this point in patch 1.3, the only viable melee block build I could piece together requires Legacy Facebreakers and achieves only 60% block with a Legacy Perandus shield. I imagine you could use a Legacy Bringer of Rain to make a viable block build as well, but I have no interest in that.

Conclusion: GGG's reckless block nerfs ruined virtually all but Legacy Unique block builds.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

You know the thread that legacy Kaom's wouldn't be so bad now, because of how base life ave life nodes have changed?

patches

0.10.5: Silverbranch legacied
1.0.2: Early levels of Poison Arrow have their damage reduced by around 35%.
1.0.3: Poison Arrow damage progression increased; around 15% better at level 15 than it was in 1.0.2.
1.0.6: Poison Arrow damage increased at higher levels; roughly 35% more damage at gem level 15.
1.1.2: Poison Arrow damage increased by 8% at level 1, scaling up to an increase of 75% at level 15 of the gem.

So I'm going to start off by saying Silverbranch never should have been legacied in the first place. The real problem was Poison Arrow being too strong at low levels, a problem they had to fix the right way later despite the Silverbranch nerf.

Second, bringing the old Silverbranch now wouldn't destroy racing. Poison Arrow isn't the early-game beast it used to be, so it's not like you can just slap it in a +2 item and boom, instant race win. Not anymore.

I think you got this backwards. Early Poison Arrow was strong exactly because of Silverbranch. Which shoehorned the ill synergy. Retaining Silverbranch but ruining the early skill progression for everyone who didn't use it would be stupid.

The sane decision would be nerfing Silverbranch to put it in line with rare +1 bows (just with an earlier potential drop) and buffing Poison Arrow so that it's strong but not OP in a +1 level bow—and this is pretty much what happened (although I still do find damage to be lacking at earlier levels without using several multipliers).

"

moozooh wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

You know the thread that legacy Kaom's wouldn't be so bad now, because of how base life ave life nodes have changed?

patches

0.10.5: Silverbranch legacied
1.0.2: Early levels of Poison Arrow have their damage reduced by around 35%.
1.0.3: Poison Arrow damage progression increased; around 15% better at level 15 than it was in 1.0.2.
1.0.6: Poison Arrow damage increased at higher levels; roughly 35% more damage at gem level 15.
1.1.2: Poison Arrow damage increased by 8% at level 1, scaling up to an increase of 75% at level 15 of the gem.

So I'm going to start off by saying Silverbranch never should have been legacied in the first place. The real problem was Poison Arrow being too strong at low levels, a problem they had to fix the right way later despite the Silverbranch nerf.

Second, bringing the old Silverbranch now wouldn't destroy racing. Poison Arrow isn't the early-game beast it used to be, so it's not like you can just slap it in a +2 item and boom, instant race win. Not anymore.

I think you got this backwards. Early Poison Arrow was strong exactly because of Silverbranch. Which shoehorned the ill synergy. Retaining Silverbranch but ruining the early skill progression for everyone who didn't use it would be stupid.

The sane decision would be nerfing Silverbranch to put it in line with rare +1 bows (just with an earlier potential drop) and buffing Poison Arrow so that it's strong but not OP in a +1 level bow—and this is pretty much what happened (although I still do find damage to be lacking at earlier levels without using several multipliers).

What GGG did was nerf Silverbranch, then wait a bit, and then nerf - not buff, but 35% nerf - Poison Arrow at low levels. Does this support the position that Silverbranch was strong on its own, or does it support the position that Poison Arrow at low levels was OP even without Silverbranch, and Silverbranch was strong only because it was the best item for one of the best skills?

Poison Arrow was the root of the problem. Not Silverbranch.

"

Thanks for taking the time to check out my patch 1.2 sword & shield Marauder build. I ran that build with a Perandus shield, which at that time added 40% block chance, for a total of 74% block. As a shield, Perandus has only 42 Evasion and I took US, so the 135% increased defenses from shields was worthless. I also used a Stone of Lahzwar, giving me 37% spell block.

In the second build I dropped all block nodes in favor of taking Increased Life and Physical Damage nodes, along with extra resist nodes to cover the loss of resist from shields. That would have increased my HP and DPS by about 30%, a significant amount for a melee fighter with less than 3.5K life and 5K dps. The build used melee Puncture, before it was nerfed into Trap bait, and Spectral Throw with knockback to punish foes with max bleed damage. This build could easily solo mid-level maps, with a slow but safe clear speed. But without the 74% block, it would have been quickly swarmed and slaughtered.

I think most players would agree that this build refutes your claim that block was a cheap and cheezy overpowered investment that deserved to be nerfed into oblivion. At this point in patch 1.3, the only viable melee block build I could piece together requires Legacy Facebreakers and achieves only 60% chance to block. I imagine you could use a Legacy Bringer of Rain to make a viable block build as well, but I have no interest in that.

Conclusion: GGG's wreckless block nerfs ruined virtually all but Legacy Unique block builds.

No problem I always enjoy looking at past trees. Perandus shield had that nice block chance and life, but IMO isn't the ideal shield to use in endgame or mid\high level maps, almost any other shield would have been better in terms of survivability and value.



(note that one isn't legacy, legacy has 3% more block chance)
That shield for example provides you with higher life and MUCH higher defenses that can nicely use those increased defenses from shield nodes you have in the tree, of course you lose the leech, hopefully you can make that up on a ring.

Using a stone is nice to get that spell block, did you not think to or couldn't use a rainbowstride boots for another 25% conversion? Also if you get a 4% block corrupt on the implicit that was pretty GG.

I think in 1.2 they had the masters block chance you can craft on gloves. So 2% block could be reached there to help.

So if you had invested more into block from gear you could have spent a little less in the tree.

As far as damage goes you could get by the blade for 3 points which is pretty good given your current position on the tree. For your second tree you traveled into the templar area to get life, theres no need to do that, from a point perspective you could complete the scion wheel or get the duelist life nodes down by the endurance charge.

From a gearing perspective though your build required what in order to achieve 74% block? Crest, thats a common unqiue few chaos at most for a good roll one after a couple of days. Thats it and points in the tree that helped you cap (almost cap) your block chance, increase your resistance and if you had the gear to increase your block chance (aka corrupted items or did tree a bit different) then you could use another shield and benefit from the 160% increased defenses.

I'll be honest with you here, melee 1 handed block builds that didn't get acro were fine, but there needs to be a cost associated with it that is more then just 1 unqiue and some points on the tree. My main issue and probably everyone's when block was OP as hell as it fully stacked with acro\phase and by using certain unqiues could also get 75% spell block, which even to this day is very strong.

I haven't done too much theory crafting but I know you can still reach almost max block and high spell block with corruption\masters, it now requires investment to do so, across the board a powerful, probably the most powerful defensive mechanic should come at a significant cost. Of course the natural argument is why invest that much into defense when I can invest that into offense and just kill faster, thats one thing that was hurt by this change.

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goetzjam wrote:

Of course the natural argument is why invest that much into defense when I can invest that into offense and just kill faster, thats one thing that was hurt by this change.

...hence the ability to convert defense into offense with the new trigger gems (and Tempest Shield)?

"

goetzjam wrote:

Perandus shield had that nice block chance and life, but IMO isn't the ideal shield to use in endgame or mid\high level maps, almost any other shield would have been better in terms of survivability and value.

(note that one isn't legacy, legacy has 3% more block chance)
That shield for example provides you with higher life and MUCH higher defenses that can nicely use those increased defenses from shield nodes you have in the tree, of course you lose the leech, hopefully you can make that up on a ring.

Using a stone is nice to get that spell block, did you not think to or couldn't use a rainbowstride boots for another 25% conversion? Also if you get a 4% block corrupt on the implicit that was pretty GG.

I'll be honest with you here, melee 1 handed block builds that didn't get acro were fine, but there needs to be a cost associated with it that is more then just 1 unqiue and some points on the tree. My main issue and probably everyone's when block was OP as hell as it fully stacked with acro\phase and by using certain unqiues could also get 75% spell block, which even to this day is very strong.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. That build was not made to be as beefy as possible, it was done to show you could solo maps with a melee fighter without any significant armor or evasion, or crit for that matter. From that POV, Perandus was the best blocking shield, and had a comparable amount of EHP boosts as the sheild you linked. Rainbowstride would've boosted spell block up to around 50%, but it was a bit too pricey, and I was content to stick with Windscrem boots for the dual curses.

I agree that combining max block with 40% Dodge from Acro was very strong in patch 1.2. However, consider how far a stretch I had to manage, ranging from Duelist to Templar areas, in order to get 34% block from the skill tree. To trek all the way over to the Acro cluster after that would require something close to a level-100 build. I don't think you can realistically claim it took minimal investment to combine max block with Acro in patch 1.2, not without using what are now Legacy Uniques. Those OP Uniques deserved their nerfs, but the drastic nerfs GGG made on the skill tree eviscerated block to the point where those same Legacy Uniques became more necessary than ever.