jewels discussion: bringing RNG and Economy to the Passive Tree

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johnKeys wrote:

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k1rage wrote:

your just trying to stir shit up at this point aren't you lol
well someone has to dirk is on probation lol

what I'm trying to do, is get this thread back on track and on topic.
like it was before people who write "lol" twice in two lines, showed up.

as for Dirk, I think it takes a special kind of "courage" to shame-post someone who isn't here to defend himself. but meh what can I expect right? "lol".

hey now that was not a shame post dirk and I are bros

im a big fan of what he brings but everyone knows he has a likes to stir the pot a little

oh and im totally aware that I waaaaaay over use "lol" its a bad habit I have lol, lol, lol, lol, lol

come to think of it I don't think ive ever actually laughed out loud when I used the term

sometimes I think i use it as a form of punctuation in place of periods lol

but yeah dont take me two seriously, lets put it this way If Charan is the ruler of wraeclast (and he is) then I must be the court jester

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miljan wrote:

If you didnt noticed, i hate economy and balance around trade, and thats why I said d3 on beginning was similar as PoE, exactly because of what you said here "balanced around the ability to trade".

No, I dont care about inflation or economy, and thing its a cancer to this game as it lower and make the game worse in so many aspects. So if a game is balanced around trading, as POE is and as D3 was, than I at least want it to be as fast as possible so I waste as less time as I can with that shit.

So no, the inflation will not make anything worse, because I dont care about it. The thing that doesn make sense is trying to make a arpg game around economy, and the only way they can lower the constant rate of inflation (as economy can not work in this type of game anyway) is making trading as much time consuming as possible, and normally 3-4 months leagues.

I did notice, but I thought the point was to compare vanilla D3 to PoE and while both are balanced around trade, D3 was way, way worse. That's my point. I get that you hate the fact that PoE is balanced around trade but you should still be able to see the differences between PoE and vanilla D3.

Just to give you my view on why balance around trade isn't cancer and is actually good for the game (yeah I mean it), it gives items value you don't actually need. Simple example, I'm playing a ranger and find a really good two-handed axe. I don't need it so I... throw it away? Sell for alt shards? No, I sell it to someone who needs it, get nice currency for it and buy what I need on my ranger. This means even though I found an item that's actually worthless to me, thanks to economy I can still make something worthwhile out of it. That's why I also pick up white 6-socket items, quality gems I never intend to use etc. Without economy those items would be trash and it would take forever to find something useful. In current D3 you get tiny upgrades all the time which feels somewhat rewarding, but this doesn't change the fact that after you've played a couple of hours, 99,99% of the items you find are trash. This really isn't the case in PoE and that's why I'm pro economy.

@ Xav :

At a glance, I thought you had a pic of a rabid Stimpy...

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BerMalBerIst1 wrote:

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johnKeys wrote:

absolutely.

because apparently 6 pages worth of rather articulate posting, isn't enough to get a point through that thick skull of yours.

just say "I got your point, although I still disagree", and we can actually move on to a normal discussion without far-fetched comparisons.
if you are capable of doing that, and I seriously doubt you do - because you aren't here to discuss anything, now are you?

It isn't possible to "get your point" because you haven't formed one with any semblance of logic whatsoever.

All you do is flail your arms going "WALL STREET!! RISK/REWARD ZOMG DONT PUT RNG IN MYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY TREE THATS ALL FOR ME AND I GET TO SAY HOW IT GOES AND NOBODY ELSE CAN SAY I AM WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE TROLES LOL"

It's rather ridiculous.

(Edit: Above is a good example of hyperbole, but it isn't even much of an exaggeration :P )

Well he has expressed his point clearly. Trade is bad, RNG is bad, economy is bad.

Most of us, including me disagree and can express this same old argument over and over...... but......


Seriously, trying to argue against trade or rng in poe is like standing on your roof, screaming at the sun not to rise in the morning. That ship has set sail looooooong ago, the train has left the station etc etc.

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Splift wrote:

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BerMalBerIst1 wrote:

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johnKeys wrote:

absolutely.

because apparently 6 pages worth of rather articulate posting, isn't enough to get a point through that thick skull of yours.

just say "I got your point, although I still disagree", and we can actually move on to a normal discussion without far-fetched comparisons.
if you are capable of doing that, and I seriously doubt you do - because you aren't here to discuss anything, now are you?

It isn't possible to "get your point" because you haven't formed one with any semblance of logic whatsoever.

All you do is flail your arms going "WALL STREET!! RISK/REWARD ZOMG DONT PUT RNG IN MYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY TREE THATS ALL FOR ME AND I GET TO SAY HOW IT GOES AND NOBODY ELSE CAN SAY I AM WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE TROLES LOL"

It's rather ridiculous.

(Edit: Above is a good example of hyperbole, but it isn't even much of an exaggeration :P )

Well he has expressed his point clearly. Trade is bad, RNG is bad, economy is bad.

Most of us, including me disagree and can express this same old argument over and over...... but......


Seriously, trying to argue against trade or rng in poe is like standing on your roof, screaming at the sun not to rise in the morning. That ship has set sail looooooong ago, the train has left the station etc etc.

yeah if you dont like trade and RNG im not sure the game is for you lol

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Xavderion wrote:

I did notice, but I thought the point was to compare vanilla D3 to PoE and while both are balanced around trade, D3 was way, way worse. That's my point. I get that you hate the fact that PoE is balanced around trade but you should still be able to see the differences between PoE and vanilla D3.

Just to give you my view on why balance around trade isn't cancer and is actually good for the game (yeah I mean it), it gives items value you don't actually need. Simple example, I'm playing a ranger and find a really good two-handed axe. I don't need it so I... throw it away? Sell for alt shards? No, I sell it to someone who needs it, get nice currency for it and buy what I need on my ranger. This means even though I found an item that's actually worthless to me, thanks to economy I can still make something worthwhile out of it. That's why I also pick up white 6-socket items, quality gems I never intend to use etc. Without economy those items would be trash and it would take forever to find something useful. In current D3 you get tiny upgrades all the time which feels somewhat rewarding, but this doesn't change the fact that after you've played a couple of hours, 99,99% of the items you find are trash. This really isn't the case in PoE and that's why I'm pro economy.

The thing is your positive example is not about balance on trade. That shit you can do in any game, the one that has balance around trading, and the one that doesnt have it, but still has trade. I am not against trading, but I am against BALANCE around it. You did not post anything good what does a game get from BALANCE around trading and trying to make a game around a economy.

Now, do you want a list of all problems that bring balance around trading?

First we have core mechanic with sockets and gems. They are made for currency sink or trade. The character customization is heavily limited by items (and additional layer of RNG for currency sink), there are no skill tree, everything except passive tree are items(now we are getting gems even in passive tree, and guess what it is also limited because of trading).

Or lets talk about map system. The reason you dont get easily high level maps is also because of trading. So you have currency sink to lower the inflation.

Or the fact that balance around trading bring all the scum from booters, RMTs, hackers, cheaters, account stealing and similar.

Than you have lowered drop rates so people would need to go to trade and so the inflation is not as fast.

Or do you want to talk about lack of time invested reword? Or the fact doing some hard content like some map bosses and similar doesnt bring anything good (difficulty/reward is unbalanced) so people skip them.

Or the fact that the game has the worst drop rates for unique item from all arpg ever made. Hack they can make some of unqiues items that change your build (not talking about top end items)even a quest reword, but guess what, they cant because of trading and economy.

Or the fact you will not see some currency items that you could theoretically use for crafting ever drop (not talking about mirrors), or some that are so rare that you will have only few.

You listed only one good point, that has nothing to do with a game balanced around trading, but just with a game that has trading.

I can go on, but i guess you get the idea why balance around economy in loot based games doesnt bring anything good. Getting upgrades from monster kills is something that can not compare to trading. It just feels so good and 10 times better than trading.

In fact, I dont know one positive thing where trying to balance the game around trading brings to the game (not counting RMT for people that use it). Maybe you will have more player interactions compared if you only had optional trading, where you would get most upgrades from your drops (for people that like that).

So, can you say anything good that balance around trading/economy brings to the game?

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BerMalBerIst1 wrote:

Wall street. WTF man lol

I can't even take most of this seriously. You can enjoy the skill tree jewels as much as you enjoy any other part of the game "self-found". To claim that this is yet another disadvantage is irrelevant, because YOU are the one that enforces that disadvantage on yourself.

If you would just come right out and say "I don't trade because I'm bad at it", then it would give the argument a SHRED of legitimacy. But any way that you become hampered as an "SFL" player is because of you and you alone.

All of us are going to love the new complexity and added tiers of GGness that we can flip/lucky RNG our asses off for. While you sit there and make posts with a jealous tone about it.

Same shit, different day.

I don't think there is any jealously involved of those who would go all-in to trading versus those who'd rather player self-found. It has more to do with the fact that the tree was something that was common between all players, all classes, all economic strata, where one didn't have to be immediately concerned by being gated from a particular build due to an out-of-reach item.

I share OP's concerns. I loved the fact that I could create a fun, playable char based simply on what nodes I allocated and how I designed my tree. I knew my tree was the same design everyone else had to work with, a commonality that only human ingenuity allowed differentiation for what succeeded what wouldn't. Now, with the ability to have drops/trading/currency/inevitable-RMT influence passive tree construction, that safe and even playing field is soon to be utterly distorted. Now money can not only buy the best gear it will be be able to buy the best tree as well. Some day we will look back at this time as purists might with nostalgia and say, 'remember the good ole days?'.

I skimmed mostly, but I see a lot of 'hur dur u suck at trading' from the usual respondents.

The point made was that the tree was the one area in which there was no RNG and no need to fight (trade) to be the best and have the BiS.

You can guess and surmise that it won't be 'that bad' all you like - and it may well not be - but it undoubtedly contributes to the pyramidal nature of the game, with everything feeding to those who are in the game the most hours (but not necessarily doing anything challenging during that time) and trade the most (ibid).

If you have to fight Uber atziri 20 times in a row without any flask charges while balancing a teapot on your head, I'll be more happy than if you have to pay 100 exalts to get the BiS jewels.

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Loreweaver wrote:

John. It's a charm slot, John. You have the option to spend a skill point to get a charm slot, John.

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miljan wrote:

<snip>

This is not an argument about positives/negatives - it simply IS what the game is. It has been designed this way to meet the needs and desires of the Developers, and very clearly wears its heart on its sleeve.

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Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. We're a small independent team of hardcore gamers based in New Zealand and have created Path of Exile as the game that we'd want to play ourselves. It is designed around a strong barter-based online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races.

While there are some elements that could use work - especially around item affixes and risk/reward as you mentioned, tailoring the trade and drop system to meet the needs of those who desire account bound or Self found only experiences is against the principles that drove the games development.

There is already choice available in the market. If the fundamental system of the game limits or prohibits your enjoyment, then you are able to seek your fun in other games. But, if you choose to play PoE you have to compromise by working within the boundaries set and established by GGG.

There is always opportunity for refinement, and there has been plenty of constructive discussion around that very topic, but at the same time we need to be cognizant of the original aims and desires of the team that created the game.