General Discussion - jewels discussion: bringing RNG and Economy to the Passive Tree - Forum

" miljan wrote: " Xavderion wrote: I did notice, but I thought the point was to compare vanilla D3 to PoE and while both are balanced around trade, D3 was way, way worse. That's my point. I get that you hate the fact that PoE is balanced around trade but you should still be able to see the differences between PoE and vanilla D3. Just to give you my view on why balance around trade isn't cancer and is actually good for the game (yeah I mean it), it gives items value you don't actually need. Simple example, I'm playing a ranger and find a really good two-handed axe. I don't need it so I... throw it away? Sell for alt shards? No, I sell it to someone who needs it, get nice currency for it and buy what I need on my ranger. This means even though I found an item that's actually worthless to me, thanks to economy I can still make something worthwhile out of it. That's why I also pick up white 6-socket items, quality gems I never intend to use etc. Without economy those items would be trash and it would take forever to find something useful. In current D3 you get tiny upgrades all the time which feels somewhat rewarding, but this doesn't change the fact that after you've played a couple of hours, 99,99% of the items you find are trash. This really isn't the case in PoE and that's why I'm pro economy. The thing is your positive example is not about balance on trade. That shit you can do in any game, the one that has balance around trading, and the one that doesnt have it, but still has trade. I am not against trading, but I am against BALANCE around it. You did not post anything good what does a game get from BALANCE around trading and trying to make a game around a economy. Now, do you want a list of all problems that bring balance around trading? First we have core mechanic with sockets and gems. They are made for currency sink or trade. The character customization is heavily limited by items (and additional layer of RNG for currency sink), there are no skill tree, everything except passive tree are items(now we are getting gems even in passive tree, and guess what it is also limited because of trading). Or lets talk about map system. The reason you dont get easily high level maps is also because of trading. So you have currency sink to lower the inflation. Or the fact that balance around trading bring all the scum from booters, RMTs, hackers, cheaters, account stealing and similar. Than you have lowered drop rates so people would need to go to trade and so the inflation is not as fast. Or do you want to talk about lack of time invested reword? Or the fact doing some hard content like some map bosses and similar doesnt bring anything good (difficulty/reward is unbalanced) so people skip them. Or the fact that the game has the worst drop rates for unique item from all arpg ever made. Hack they can make some of unqiues items that change your build (not talking about top end items)even a quest reword, but guess what, they cant because of trading and economy. Or the fact you will not see some currency items that you could theoretically use for crafting ever drop (not talking about mirrors), or some that are so rare that you will have only few. You listed only one good point, that has nothing to do with a game balanced around trading, but just with a game that has trading. I can go on, but i guess you get the idea why balance around economy in loot based games doesnt bring anything good. Getting upgrades from monster kills is something that can not compare to trading. It just feels so good and 10 times better than trading. In fact, I dont know one positive thing where trying to balance the game around trading brings to the game (not counting RMT for people that use it). Maybe you will have more player interactions compared if you only had optional trading, where you would get most upgrades from your drops (for people that like that). So, can you say anything good that balance around trading/economy brings to the game? Everyone at GGG should read miljan's post multiple times until it sinks in. John I'm not looking forward to RNG on the Skill tree either. It was the last RNGfree zone in PoE...I was hoping GGG would reevaluate the RNG glut and pare back the RNG in 2.0 but no, they added more. -_- Ascension tied to Lab is the worst thing GGG has done...apart from GGG's philosophy on Trading. Oh and Gambling Loot boxes. And selling out to tencent. I used to love GGG. I supported to ensure GGG remained independent, now I just wish I could get my money back. -_-	Posted by Chameleon#4418 on Apr 17, 2015, 1:32:44 AM Quote this Post
The builds that you guys see in guides are overkill. Stop feeling like you have to be on the same level as those builds. This thread is just trying to say, "People who will have better jewels than me will make me feel inferior and jealous" Get over it. You're not LeBron James in basketball and you're not #1 RNG guy in Path of Exile. Learn to love what you really are and get over this jealousy and play your own game and stop worrying about what the next guy is doing so much.	Posted by BearCares#6660 on Apr 17, 2015, 2:03:20 AM Quote this Post
The problem John, me and many others have is that if you want T1 gear(and now a T1 Skill tree) trading is not optional, it is mandatory. No amount of grinding or self crafting will get you there. Currency just doesnt drop frequently enough for one to make all their own T1 gear. Ascension tied to Lab is the worst thing GGG has done...apart from GGG's philosophy on Trading. Oh and Gambling Loot boxes. And selling out to tencent. I used to love GGG. I supported to ensure GGG remained independent, now I just wish I could get my money back. -_-	Posted by Chameleon#4418 on Apr 17, 2015, 2:15:55 AM Quote this Post
there will be jewels given as quest rewards, and i think u even start with 1 in ur inventory! generally even ur starting one will be as good as a node. also, ill defs be playing in a new league when act 4 comes. solo self found, at least for the first 4 days. and i have no doubt in my mind ill get some sweet jewels. im usually lucky with gearing, in the 1mhc i scored 2ex and a carto box in the first week, and i have a good system at lvl 60 for which base items i identify or not to get the 2c vendor recipe and a sweet shop running. jewels just sound fun.	Posted by Float#7947 on Apr 17, 2015, 2:49:34 AM Quote this Post
I look forward to seeing what I can do as a primarily solo self-found character. Jewels seem like they'll be making up for the issues that usually pop up in higher levels, and smooth out the way there. I'll always welcome more customization. :) You call into the void. You hear a sound in the distance.	Posted by Felix35071#6865 on Apr 17, 2015, 3:04:56 AM Quote this Post
" Chameleon wrote: John I'm not looking forward to RNG on the Skill tree either. It was the last RNGfree zone in PoE...I was hoping GGG would reevaluate the RNG glut and pare back the RNG in 2.0 but no, they added more. -_- Well, no exactly 100%... Passives are quite free up to say lvl 80, but then even passives start to get noticeably RNG gated, because XP is gated behind high map drops, which are quite random. I suppose that by the time you get a char to 90 (and we already need to weed through a ton of RNG for that), you'll also find a bunch of jewels to socket. E: I also suspect (hope) that this jewel system will not serve to add a difficulty layer on top of everything (eg: you need GG jewels to tackle content X), but expand build diversity and smooth out progression, exactly as master crafting did. When night falls She cloaks the world In impenetrable darkness Last edited by morbo#1824 on Apr 17, 2015, 3:35:13 AM	Posted by morbo#1824 on Apr 17, 2015, 3:31:37 AM Quote this Post
I wonder why the hell that johnKeys guy plays this game if he hates so much two of the main aspects of the game - RNG and trading? There are loads of offline half-dead ARPGs to enjoy for the likes of him - Grim Dawn, Torchlight 1/2, Van Helsing 1/2 hell, even D3. On the topic of jewels - I really doubt GGG will make them super rare or hard to obtain. IGN: Iworkeout Last edited by cutt#5066 on Apr 17, 2015, 4:27:26 AM	Posted by cutt#5066 on Apr 17, 2015, 4:26:25 AM Quote this Post
I can only repeat that from my perspective as self-found oriented player, I have issues with jewels bringing RNG into the one and probably last area that was safe from it, ie. skill tree. I have no issues with taking longer to acquire things or never achieving power levels players who trade can get to. I realize that disparity fully and accept the situation. I just want to be able to build my character passive skill-wise without any obstructions. Yes, trade for me is an obstruction and unwanted hassle. My hope is GGG will want as large population as possible to experience new feature like jewels, therefore, certain amount of magic and rare jewels will be offered as quest rewards in Act4 or even sooner as a result of re-balancing of leveling progression.	Posted by Baron01#3047 on Apr 17, 2015, 5:00:13 AM Quote this Post
@BearCares, this tread isn't about jealousy or LeBron James. first and foremost, it is about me wanting as much control over my own character as possible. second, it is about the one thing that hasn't yet been directly influenced by RNG and Economy, the one thing keeps me in the game more than anything else - Passive Tree - being "invaded" by both in 2.0. choosing what nodes I want to pick up and how I want to get to them, without anything related to RNG influencing my options and decisions. you don't even need to read my posts to understand what I'm trying to get across here. read posts by Peripherally, who hit the nail on the head perfectly, or that latest post Miljan, who expresses the frustration caused by the gradual "hostile take over" of trade-and-randomization-centred design over every single aspect of the game, better than I ever could. this thread is important to me. it is a "fight" that needs to get GGG's attention, and as such I'll keep on bumping it until GGG realise there are some people playing, who don't like RNG being shoved down their throats from every possible direction. enough is enough. RNG should be designed around a game. fine-tuned to what the game wants it to do. a game should not be designed around RNG. and the same applies about Economy in a game, that isn't - at least by definition - an Economic Simulator. Economy is a feature, not a goal. @Morbo, while it is true RNG's indirect grip around the Passive Tree steadily increases as you level, 99% of the game for me at least, is below level 80. also, an indirect grip isn't as bad as letting RNG get a direct one. @Cutt, played Torchlight. love both. great games. played D3. hate it with a passion. it is better today than I remember it, I suppose, but maybe I just have a psychological trauma from it, preventing me from ever going back. played Van Helsing... didn't last as much as I wanted it to. will definitely play Grim Dawn when I get the chance, because it's a successor to one of my all-time favourite ARPGs - Titan Quest. if you didn't understand by now, I don't mind RNG and Trading being in the game. especially RNG which is a valuable building-block of just about any modern ARPG. I do mind Trade and RNG being "the two main aspects of the game". never. and now the one thing I enjoy the most - in part because neither trade nor RNG had any direct effect on it - is going to, at least partially, be about trade and RNG as well. I cannot accept that. not the Passive Tree. anything but the Passive Tree. Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat Shadow: That was fun Last edited by johnKeys#6083 on Apr 17, 2015, 5:49:46 AM	Posted by johnKeys#6083 on Apr 17, 2015, 5:26:17 AM Quote this Post
" Xavderion wrote: I'd also like to add that there are certain worst case scenarios with no trade (as in current D3), where for example say you want some high end unique but it literally never drops, ever. What do you do? You can't do shit. What can the player do in D3 ? He can wipe those salty tears from his eyes,man the fuck up and continue down the righteous path of You keep what you kill. What makes you think you'd even afford to buy the dream BIS item of your choice without farming AND trading (or possibly using RMT)the same ridiculous amount of hours that it would take to find it yourself in a self find environment ? It's a problem for some maybe .... not for others EDIT: Just to remind you .... there are no high end uniques in D3.They are called Legendary and every Legendary in game has the potential to drop as early as Torment 1.The higher the Torment tier the higher drop rate becomes = higher the chance of obtaining one. There's also the option of running Greater Rifts and pitting yourself against ever higher level scaling creatures with 100% chance that the Rift Guardian will drop an assortment of Legendarys at high tier. You could also use the in game option of gambling those hard earned Blood Shards with Gheed's daughter .... Kadala (that bitch).. which will allow you to target certain item types. Failing that you can gasp play with friends/clan or organized loot hunter groups that specialize in loot share gameplay,giving yourself and your party an enormous boost to the odds of you finding the item of your choice..... and that's called ... wait for it ... dum dum dum..TRADING .... in it's rawest form. As for the original topic,I'm not surprised to see this addition.Some will love it,some will hate it,some will be indifferent and all will have to deal with the extra RnG in their own way. Bye ! =P Last edited by Temper#7820 on Apr 18, 2015, 8:25:27 AM	Posted by Temper#7820 on Apr 17, 2015, 6:13:10 AM Quote this Post