jewels discussion: bringing RNG and Economy to the Passive Tree

@BearCares, your assumption is false at its core.
I don't enjoy RNG. not what it is in PoE anyways. but I hate trading even more.

I would enjoy RNG, if it was what it is in other games that actually value a player's effort and skill: a carefully-crafted outcome generator, responsible for area layouts, monster pack compositions, modifiers ... and yes, loot. where loot is preferably a function taking all of the above into account to produce a biased-but-still-sufficiently-random result.
one that makes the player respect its role and work, rather than fear it and try to avoid it.
one that has a well-defined set of roles, as a game's building block, but does not have a Master Key and a "licence to kill (the player's fun)".

and if it all seems a bit abstract, just look at other games.
RNG-using, to various degree of implementation. but not RNG-based.
look at other games which have this dirty word "Economy" in them, and belong to the RPG genre.
none of those is an Economic Simulator where absolutely everything is based around trading.
because in RPG, trading - if it exists - is just one more feature.

emotional response? yes. definitely. because apparently I care too much, and tend to over-think stuff I care about.
but it's not "Jealousy". not in your sense, at least.
most of my builds? I made them. either from scratch or inspired by other great people's wonderful ideas.
while making them, there was always something I could count on. the Passive Tree. my safe-haven of full control. my "candy store".
*BOOM* the Candy Store will soon be part of the Stock Market.

you know what? maybe it is jealousy.
I am jealous, of the game Path Of Exile can be, if only GGG actually recognize this rough diamond they are cutting belongs in the ARPG genre, where it can shine as bright as the best of 'em.

or not. they can continue moulding it as part of the Simulator genre. a simulation of economy and trade.
at which point, it would no longer interest me as an ARPG.

TL;DR - go back and read this.

"

Splift wrote:

Dude you can play poe just fine without trading, im beginning to the the real problem is you just dont know how to play.

Can you imagine what d2 would be like if things like enigma were as rare as blizzard intended? The few who owned them would dominate pvp and ruin one of d2 strongest points (pvp was great in d2).

Read my post very carefully to understand what I am talking about in this thread, as I dont want to repeat same thing from several pages ago.

Dont care about PvP as it was never a big part of arpg games, including d2 and PoE, and was more for trolling around people and pk-ing.

"

miljan wrote:

"

Splift wrote:

Regardless, someone who trades and participates in economy in d2 will always have stronger chars than someone who is self found, just like poe.

Does not matter what blizzard intended, what mattered was reality.

It matter what blizazrd intended, because if they wanted to have economy they implement same crap as in PoE. You want rune words? Lets add rng so there is 10% that if put them in right order you get the item you want. You want to use skill? You will first need to get some runes to put on items to get sockets so you can use them.

Yea, reality hurts, and you can see and compare a game balanced from ground up around economy POE, and all the shitty mechanic that are there only as curency sink, to d2, where you dont have that additional layer of bulshit. But you keeping ignoring it will not change the simple facts that they are night and day and nothing alike. And no, having items thta are hard to get and have low drop rates is not same as balance from ground up for economy (every arpg, including d3 has items that are hard to get, but people fail in their thinking so hard).

Ok I am readin.

Diablo 2 had an economy whether blizzard intended it or not and in order to compete properly with others you had to participate in it.

Finding the runes in the first place was an insane amount of rng, unless of course you traded.

And I dont see any other points to respond to aside from typical rng/trade is bad jibberish.

Can we stop talking about the D2 economy lol, its a game that while good, is dead

so lets stop bickering about it lol

What the hell?

No, D2 was NOT designed (built) around trading. It had loot tables for you to specialize you grind and farm, for better chances of obtaining what you want. Yes, a currency emerged, as people wants everything NOW, without having to farm. But DROP RATES were balanced around playing the game, not trading the game.

A lot of us miss that.

"

BerMalBerIst1 wrote:

snip

Yay I have a quote in someones sig.

Somehow its very applicable to this thread lol(or maybe it was from earlier in this thread?).

And here I am arguing with people once again who insist on screaming at the sun.

As long as the unique jewels aren't on the same rarity tier as Shav's I'll be fine. If I can pay an Exalt or two to get the one I want I'll be happy, but if we have insanely rare 25+ Exalt jewels I'm totally with you.

"

phrazz wrote:

What the hell?

No, D2 was NOT designed (built) around trading. It had loot tables for you to specialize you grind and farm, for better chances of obtaining what you want. Yes, a currency emerged, as people wants everything NOW, without having to farm. But DROP RATES were balanced around playing the game, not trading the game.

A lot of us miss that.

And drop rates were similar or even worse than those in PoE. So it doesn't matter what Blizzard intended to do, fact is D2 was a horrendous grind fest if you wanted top tier items. That's why everyone and his mum botted duped and d2jsp'd.

"

Splift wrote:

"

miljan wrote:

"

Splift wrote:

Regardless, someone who trades and participates in economy in d2 will always have stronger chars than someone who is self found, just like poe.

Does not matter what blizzard intended, what mattered was reality.

It matter what blizazrd intended, because if they wanted to have economy they implement same crap as in PoE. You want rune words? Lets add rng so there is 10% that if put them in right order you get the item you want. You want to use skill? You will first need to get some runes to put on items to get sockets so you can use them.

Yea, reality hurts, and you can see and compare a game balanced from ground up around economy POE, and all the shitty mechanic that are there only as curency sink, to d2, where you dont have that additional layer of bulshit. But you keeping ignoring it will not change the simple facts that they are night and day and nothing alike. And no, having items thta are hard to get and have low drop rates is not same as balance from ground up for economy (every arpg, including d3 has items that are hard to get, but people fail in their thinking so hard).

Ok I am readin.

Diablo 2 had an economy whether blizzard intended it or not and in order to compete properly with other you had to participate in it.

Finding the runes in the first place was an insane amount of rng, unless of course you traded.

And I dont see any other points to respond to aside from typical rng is bad jibberish.

Yes, d2 had economy around high tier items, as any game would have for low drop rate items. The thing you dont understand or dont want to understand is, PoE is from ground up build around economy. Devs specifically implemented mechanic that don't add anything to the game, just for item sink, so the inflation is slowed as much as possible. They added aditional RNG on top of RNG that was not in d2 for the item sink.

You are here talking about some competiton, I dont give a crap about competition, nor did I post anything about. In fact fair competition can only be done in a trade free game with as less RNG as possible, but this is totally offtopic.

To much RNG is bad, as same as to little RNG is bad. You need to hit balance. And again you posting something like "rng is bad" proving that you just dont read things carefully and just post so you can replay and dig yourself in even more. You say finding those runes has huge amount of RNG, but you miss the fact, once you find them, there is no more RNG. You put them in item and you will always 100% get same result. You miss the fact that there is no RNG in building you character, in using skills, in getting items (no sockets and other limitations). In PoE, that is not the case. There are ton more things what makes POE totally different and 90% of it comes from game balance around trading.

"

phrazz wrote:

What the hell?

No, D2 was NOT designed (built) around trading. It had loot tables for you to specialize you grind and farm, for better chances of obtaining what you want. Yes, a currency emerged, as people wants everything NOW, without having to farm. But DROP RATES were balanced around playing the game, not trading the game.

A lot of us miss that.

Yes they never designed to account for trading.

BotD, enigma, elite uniques etc were all perfectly viable self found.