Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion
" No I disagree. If they were to add a new league where the actual challenge (meaning the difficulty of monsters) was reduced I would not want to join that league. So it has nothing to do with taking the path of least resistance. At least not as it relates to myself. I actually enjoy challenge. But I don't like being frustrated to the point I feel like quitting the game because a lag spike just cost me hours upon hours of grinding. That is not challenge to me. It's just an annoying waste of time. As far as choices: I would agree having choices is good if they help enhance the gameplay. But choosing to skip a boss fight because you don't want to risk losing experience doesn't enhance the gameplay in any meaningful way. Just makes the game more boring. Last edited by Berylstone#2209 on Aug 14, 2015, 2:02:38 PM
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You missed some of the points and it looks slightly misquoted just FYI.
" The information is around, sure but saying that the XP penalty or deing is trivial just removes the claim that current XP penalty is "bad" " No, this is stated many times in every single XP thread, that it puts a bar on builds that want to level after a certain point. Your character isn't done at level 100, it has to be done significantly "sooner" then that, not only because the highest level content is 82, but also because level 100 isn't suppose to be reachable by everyone. " Um, no. This is a fundamental mentality flaw of SC players. We both play the same game, but for some reason you think you shouldn't have to make as balanced of a character as a HC player would? Melee skills in general are not walk up and auto attack, no one enjoys that anymore. Its funny you even mention melee in this as they are the ones that got the largest buffs in this patch and are among the strongest builds. Other games in this genre solved melee vs ranged on release, PoE did not so using this argument at all is pointless. " The reason why it has it is because GGG liked the idea of penalising players for deing, it rewards good balanced builds, while punishing mistakes or non balanced builds. Using the "scape goat" that the only reason it has it is because D2 did is a flat observation and an unwarranted statement. Thats like saying GGG copied everything D2 did, just because D2 had it, no they didn't. Do we have health pots that are consumables, no. " Um, no it isn't stupid you haven't mentioned a single compelling reason or observation with any experience to back up why you think it is. Give scenario(s) in which you think the XP penalty is "stupid" and try not to use the overly useful "restricts meh builds" argument. " And what makes you think it isn't? The devs MAY have changed their original intention or design choice by making this a HC game for HC players that had a non perm death league for players that wished to play in a more forgiving realm, but what exactly makes you think they made this game for SC players and just added in a HC league, because this perception is not only wrong its farfetched. I'm bringing hardcore into here because when discussing the penalty its important to note that there is a method of gameplay that people are doing and any argument you bring up on the level of "too difficult", "too unforgiving" , ect can all be made 100% mute by the fact that players do the same content and NEVER DIE ONCE or if they do they level up again and play the same content. I've recently switched to a HC league player after starting off as a SC player, you may think why the hell do I even care what goes on in SC anymore, well because it has an effect if I do want to play in that mode, it has an effect on the economy in general and most importantly it has an effect on the image of the game. " Much "smarter", no this exact solution or thing has been addressed before, if not in this thread then almost every other xp thread. Time based penalties are a terrible design, you think losing hours of mapping in XP isn't fine, why would encouraging players to NOT play the game be fine? That is, as always among the worst suggestions for a fix. " Again, this is where you are wrong. You aren't the game designer you don't get to choose what is right or wrong for the game. You don't have any reason to then further claim the dev is wrong for changing their mind on something later and then using that against them for any future arguments. The fact that the majority of your post has really nothing to do with the XP penalty and more in lines with trying to prove GGG is wrong, just goes to show how weak your point\argument is. You mentioned the fact a thread had 100+ pages, obviously that means 2 things, its a hot topic and probably a highly contested one at that. So 100+ thread can be people constantly responding to new arguments in favor or against a change that was purposed. That doesn't mean 100+ is any more relevant then an underlooked or non contested topic. " Fun fact, you never mentioned the part where they already reduced this penalty, which is among one of the top arguments people use in these topics, either you didn't know or don't care enough to present it as an argument. Just like always some things don't get changed, why because they don't want to. The have the information in their hands to determine on "crap" deaths. They know who uses what on the passive tree, they know what skills are not being used. Its up to GGG to determine the information and the fact you even mention that reducing the XP penalty is a time based thing is anise, its adjusting a value and something they've already done. They know how to do it, it isn't a time based problem, but rather a PICNIG (problem in chair not in game) " Name a single ARPG that uses this lockstep method, o wait you can't its because PoE is the first game in this genre to do it. He didn't think, at the time that the game would be enjoyable in this new method, they had to work on this for many years and as a smaller company could have been a huge "waste" of time consdering the amount of people that could play with the current mode. Is lockstep good, you bet, is it as smooth as a perfectly working predictive mode client, nope. " No, the reason it was added was to preserve things like 5 links and various colors. Never in their wildest dreams did they think people would monopolize the market and make 6T1 rares. Regardless of the removal, it doesn't mean it was wrong. When they get readded again at a later date, do I get to come back and say you were wrong for saying they were wrong when they simply removed it to get a better understanding of its effects? Eternals were fine in general and the removal is NOT indicative of a failed choice, but rather one that didn't have all the cards at the time, by design they are amazing and serve more purposes then the making perfect 6T1 items, but people, as always (like yourself) only point out the negative of the thing, never the positive. " The fact you even mention IIQ here just blows my mind.....please wait while I piece it back together..... Ok IIQ was removed what 2 years before they ever added a loot filter? Imagine if they added it back in now, o wait theirs a number of unqiues that still have IIQ, hum if only they could have solved the issue in another way back then, we may still have IIQ gem in leagues. " People using eternal orbs as currency, how is that possible, when they aren't in temp leagues. I get your point people using orbs as currency, but saying GGG didn't want players using these orbs as that is stupid, the whole idea was that the orbs both had crafting value (a sink) and trade value because they had purpose aside from trading. Again, you say bartering is a failure when numerous transactions are completed every day that are bartering through and through. " Except you are wrong, the game doesn't follow real like to a T, it follows its own path, one that you cannot seem to being to understand. Bartering is very prominent in poe, even right this second, if you use poe.trade and just do BO every time your wasting so much of your currency its not even funny. " Do you even know what you are saying? Things naturally hold value to people, if you say its worth 8ex and someone offers you an item that is worth 8ex that you want, you wouldn't take it? Of course you would, you want the item, in PoE most of the time its easier just to sell for "currency" and then buy the item later, but saying both systems cant or don't co-exists is both wrong and silly. " Link me examples please. " Poe released in 2013, for the past 2 years they have been working on offering the new solution. Again saying they were "wrong" isn't correct, from their perspective and many players the game was both enjoyable and playable, making your game available to other people or trying to do a new method in the genre doesn't mean they were wrong when they didn't originally release with lockstep. "it was obvious to anyone that has done backend dev" O really where are those people that have made an ARPG with a lockstep method..... " The reality of the argument is that saying that any choice GGG made in the past is automatically bad because for some reason they changed a stance is asinine. " The argument you are using is that they changed their minds on somethings in the past and therefore they should (and are wrong in the XP penalty) If my arguments are "logically fallacious" then its simply because you present your arguments in such a way they cannot be addressed in any other manner. " Grats on just spurting out random shit about the game. Nothing in there addresses you claim that somehow poe is more difficult then D2. " I'm looking at it in a really small window? CWDT came with 1.0, so as far as I am concerned the majority of poe has had cwdt. Closed beta, while fun isn't indicative of the current game. Are you going back and looking at D2 pre public release and reviewing the difficult the game was then? Poe had higher life % on tree, 1k kaoms heart, higher block chance, non nerfed BoR and I'm the one looking at PoE in a really small window? Nope Please don't bother posting replies to all of these, feel free to PM me or spoiler them as most have nothing to do with XP penalty but rather your somewhat interesting view to address 1 specific issue by throwing everything poe has ever done into the topic. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285 FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. Last edited by goetzjam#3084 on Aug 14, 2015, 3:08:33 PM
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Ok, lets get one thing straight. Consistently in your answers, you keep on throwing around this whole SC/HC dichotomy, even though its something that the devs don't even know what it understands (or Chris for that matter)
PoE is not a hardcore game, nor is D2 nor is D3. PoE is a game that punishes you more if you don't do content that is currently FOTM (and this applies to SC or HC), however if you have the knowledge of what you need to do (which is very easy to get), PoE is actually easier. Its easier than D2, and arguably easier than D3 (depending on what your definition of easy is) Actual hardcore games are games that don't give you a choice in difficulty, in the multiplayer sphere these are games like Dota2/SC/SC2/CS. In those games, if some content is harder (i.e. you are versing someone that is better than you), you lose, straight and simple. There is no "grinding in lower level areas" to avoid difficult content, there is no "legacy drops that makes gives you significant" advantage. PoE is a timecore game, not a hardcore game. It heavily incentives time investment, but its not hardcore in the traditional 90's sense. A game that allows zerging of content (by choice) because the death penalty is stupidly designed is not one thats hardcore. A game that allows alt+f4 is not hardcore. Hardcore doesn't give you a choice. If PoE was actually hardcore, alt +f4 would be death, there would be a mechanic where you couldn't zergy bosses etc etc. Stop throwing this HC/SC bs around, its not helpful, its a false dichotomy, and PoE isn't even hardcore when you compare it to other games " You missed the context of that statement. I said its trivial in what you regard as the hardcorness of the game (which isn't really hardcore, but lets avoid that for now) " Yes, and what do you think that bar means? What do you thin that bar does? What is the difference between 90 and 100? All that bar does, is it means that your character may be done at 90, instead of 100. But those are just numbers. And the difference between 90 and 100, in terms of character power, is basically nothing. Let me remind you that I am not arguing for a complete removal. The real sense of progress, and accomplishment in PoE, is always with item progression, just like it is in D2. You hit a point where your build is pretty much complete (in PoE this is roughly 85-90, in D2 its roughly 30-40). Any other "levels" above just improved the strength of your build. " For starters, redefining what melee means isn't helping anyone. Melee means hitting stuff in range of what your arms are (give and take). The fact that PoE redefined melee isn't helping anyone As your comment about builds being balance, the thing is they aren't. Top tier builds, for the history of PoE (barring some exlcusions), have always over invested on defense. We had life before, then we had stacking dual block/evasion, and then we had the whole MoM/LC phase. The passive tree allocations always put > 50% of their points into offense (either direct or indirect), and there were always methods abused to minimize offense allocation at the cost of defense (i.e. facebreakers). You throw tripe at SC players for wanting to go build glass cannons all the time, well the boomerang tripe is for HC players that always do the polar opposite. Those are arbitrary choices, non are more hardcore than others. One is currently more effective, and the death penalty has a say in that. Also do note, that games that other forms of deaths (including ARPG's), people simply compete on other metrics. There is no emperical objective evidence that this type of death penalty actually makes the game easier, it just shifts the context of what people think "easy and hard are". I said it before and I said it again, I am not for removing the current death penalty. But it seems you have a incorrect correlation between death penalty and hardcore " There are so many things wrong with this 1. Top tier builds are not balanced. This is historically and empirically a fact. 2. In HC mode, all the penalty does it forces players to over level in under levelled areas (because of the fear of death) 3. When you say "balanced", you mean a build that "allocates a bit more offense than defense". In PoE, successful builds always try to - Cap one or two forms of defense that isn't life (evasion/block/armor) - Cap one or two forms of your health buffer (life/ES/combination) - Cap and over cap resistances (this is mandatory, if you dont have at minimum 75/75/75 res, you aren't going anywhere) - Ontop of all of the above, using some flat damage reduction (EC/MoM/LC/Arctic) If you actually wrote it down logically, and defined what is mandatory to succeed PoE. You will see, its not just some defense and some offense (what you are implying when you say balanced), it is actually "defense is always first priority, add as much offense as you need just to progress". (This is mainly due to being able to abuse stacking/strong boxes/baiting to multiply out your damage to work with having lower DPS) - Sometimes the above doesn't always imply, always usually due to some broken item being introduced (i.e. atziri gloves), but then it always reverts to this when the content is fixed " Right, so the current death penalty allows - Allows limitless zerging of bosses - Heavily penalizes single random deaths (you can literally lose hours of time) - Due to zerging bosses, allows weaker builds to progress than further than they should until they hit the first ~lvl 70 wall. In other words, the death penalty is actually making the build viability really wonky and extreme Ontop of that, the death penalty is just something that is copied from other similar games. Its not like GGG went "we are going to design the death penalty so it does x,y,z". They copied it from other games, and shifted numbers around. " Because they stated it isn't. HC was added to a give a carrot to the masochistic players (which they asked for), but they never balancd around HC, nor will they ever balance for HC. If you want empirical evidence of this, other types of player/leagues, PoE does try to balance. PvP is balanced by tweaking certain skills and their scaling. Races are balanced by altering some missions. New leagues are balanced with new content and tweaks. What does PoE do to "balance" HC. Absolutely nothing. HC is a gimmick (albet a gimmick which people asked for) that Poe threw in and just leaves there, devoting 0 attention to any sought of balance issues. " Thats nice, but your definition of hardcore isn't actually hardcore (and D2 was never a hardcore game). And as I said earlier, "hardcore mode" in PoE is a gimmick, and not something the game is balanced for. It was also a gimmick in D2. Which means its not something that I am going to discuss, because its irrelevant and its just an attempt to derail the conversation. " If you want to actually be hardcore, thats what the penalty should be. It prevents zerging (probably the most hilarious silver bullet against the whole hardcore argument), and it really punishes weak builds. I don't see how this is worse off in terms of time. If you die once on lvl 90, you are probably 1-2 hours. If you die once with this system, you don't actually lose any XP but you do get a debuff (which also only lasts a certain amount of time). Also note that numbers can be tweaked " Let me remind you, that it was you who originally argued from a pedestal, trumping chris's own words. I was merely responding to your incorrect claims. We can stop discussing this whole "GGG is wrong" when you you stop cherry picking half of what GGG says. If you don't want to talk about when GGG made a decision/had a view point, and they ended up changing, then don't bring up what you think is GGG's plan You are right, I am not the designer of the game. Neither are you. Chris was (maybe still is?), but a lot of those things have changed. Thats a fact. So if you don't want to discuss Chris/GGG in regards to original design claims, than you should have never mentioned them " Historically and empirically, odds are if there is such huge discussion on such things, they actually do get changed eventually (either directly or indirectly). This happened with loot, this happened with desync, this happened with random drops (indirect change was deterministic crafting), this happened with trading (divination cards, Vaal orbs was an attempt but it was a bad one, original intention was to curb trade mode in PoE). Then there are all of the changes to mapping. Heck, most recent one was the mega nerfs to Malechai on Normal/Cruel, which everyone was complaining about So let me put it this way, you need to either drop this stance, or put forward an argument that is more convincing. Because whenever some topic gets discussed hugely, with lots of debate, it pretty much has always caused a change in something. " Yup, we call that a bandaid, because its much easier to do then to come up with a new system, and having to beta test it (which is something that historically GGG is pretty bad at in terms of getting it right at first release) " You are making an unfounded assumption here (not about the stats apart, but about the time/PICNIG). You think its PICNIG, doesn't mean that GGG does. It probably is partly (but only partly) PICNIG, I don't have the extreme position of removing the death penalty entirely, I just want it changed. This is entirely normal though " A this good old fallacy. Replace "arpg" with "games that have similar mechanics to arpg", and you will find all of the online games that have similar mechanics don't have desync. Let me list them for you - Dota - Dota2 - LoL - Wc3 - SC - SC2 Those games have the exact same mechanics regarding responsiveness, number of mobs on the screen, actual mechanics like stuns and chance based effects etc etc. I don't want to go here again, there are games which had almost the same type, and style of mechanics as PoE (mainly the ones in the MOBA genra, also some RTS), and these games never desycned. And that is why every single person, apart from white knighters, called PoE out on this. It didn't make sense, and Chris's original response (which was in the original and now deleted manifesto) was some PR exercise to try and shift blame I am not going to talk about PoE desync anymore, because I already have direct evidence of them being wrong. They implemented lockstep (which I immediately switched to, from auto). Havent had one single desync, and the game isn't any less responsive in a human measurable way. " False, it is. Try permanently using WB with the old sync system, and then come back here. You start noticing some slight delay at 90+ ping, but you actually aren't any worse off than with the old sync system (having higher latency increase the change something will desync due to entropy). I am not going to speak about desync in this thread again, its not a desync thread. You are just parroting PoE's position because they are PoE, but, GGG did something wrong on their end, and they always new it (PoE started dev in 2005, and they designed their networking engine assuming that internet wouldn't proliferate as fast as it did in reality). They always secretly knew this, which is why they had their team implement the sync system that they publicly argued didn't work. If they really think it wouldn't work, or that it wasn unnecessary, they wouldn't recoded their networking engine to allow this (and yes, thats what you have to do, the 2 styles of networking are so dissimilar) " The design decision was to try and improve orb based crafting (such as preserving links). As you correctly stated it, it turned out to not do that, and make horrible damage on the economy " They wouldn't. Its not a case of diamond flasks, which was just "too strong". Eternals (and this is really a fundamental issue of how PoE designed their currency system, debate for another thread), is one of the currencies, like exalted's, which don't have any real value (outside of being a currency), unless you are the top 1-5% of players who. Eternals are actually even worse than exalted's because of the sheer damage they did to the economy in regards inflating it with mirror perfect rares. The fundamental issue is that the majority of player base would see like 3-4 eternals a year, they would be far more likely to trade it in for currency rather than actually make good gear. Eternals was an attempt to target those players (because GGG knows, that the majority of mid level players, barring alts/glassblowers) use their orbs as a form of currency, and not really on items. The whole point of orbs btw (as mentioned in the original deleted manifesto), was to prevent it being used as a currency (i.e. the whole barting thing). Go to poe.trade, or the forums, and you have a universal currency, its called exalted/chaos, which is really your dollars/cents in real life. " Yes, but as a sink it also fails, at least in regards to numbers. The majority of mid level players (as mentioned before), don't use it as sinks. The fact that some people use those orbs as sinks doesn't mean anything, if you are talking about economics, you are talking about what happens in aggregates. And in aggregates, the vast majority of people don't use orbs as natural sinks (i.e. improving their items, or bartering, which were the 2 main original selling points). " You are being subjective here, and falling into the heuristic logical fallacy. Just because bartering exists (and that you do bartering) doesn't mean that its the predominant form of trading. The predominant form of trading is done using orbs as a currency. Thats hugely more effecient, just as it is real life. People barter/trade over items which are really rare (antiques, collectibles) in real life, just like people in PoE would barter over mirror worthy items. There is empirical evidence of this, its the proliferation of RMT, which PoE out of any modern has probably the worst issue with (even more than D2 in its time) " You are mixing bartering and haggling Haggling is negotiating an already established price. Bartering is trading an item with another item when bypassing currency. Haggling obviously happens commonly in the real world, but its not the most common form of trading. The most common form of trading is buying goods at their price, i.e. grociers at your supermaket chain. Bartering is done very rarely, in fact the most compelling example I can come up with IRL is people trading cards in TCG's and stuff like that " As I said before, deep down PoE knew they were incorrect (or wrong), they just never admitted it publically, it was PR. If they thought they were right, they wouldn't have spent years recoding the engine to something they argued against " This was the famous phrase that PoE was throwing around (which you are now parroting), which was intentionally deceiving. Were their any recent ARPG's that had that system? No. (But then again, there weren't any recent multiplayer online only non cheatable ARPG's that came out). Where there plenty of games which have basically the same mechanics of PoE and where multiplayer online only to prevent cheating? Yes Thats why PoE's answer was deceiving, and thats why they were continuously called out on it " Agreed, its an asinine response to an your asinine stance that relies on what you think GGG's plans are for the game (which you implied was constant and doesn't change) If you don't want asinine responses, than don't make asinine comments about what you think PoE's design is, or what you think their attitude to the game is (relative to how effective it is) Last edited by deteego#6606 on Aug 14, 2015, 10:23:06 PM
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" False, I been playing games from the 90's. I used to play semi-competitively Dota/Dota2, which is the least handwavey game you could imagine, apart from dwarven fortress (which I also play) I personally have an issue with people calling PoE a hardcore game when its not a hardcore game. It seems like there is a bunch of people that created a bubble of delusion where they hamster the "PoE is actually hardcore" without any compelling evidence Heck even D2, which had the hardcore mode, deleted your character on death. I would highly recommend you stop making assumptions about the type of players that have some position that is contrary to your own. It does nothing to help your argument and it makes it seem like you are getting personal for no reason. Last edited by deteego#6606 on Aug 14, 2015, 10:37:09 PM
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It seems we don't have enough info needed to bring this debate down to something we can quantify and objectively analyze. I'm not sure if GGG has all that info either since there will likely be things they've overlooked regarding the player experience and XP penalties.
It comes down to players relating their experiences to GGG, and then hopefully providing that info gives GGG enough to work on to accurately assess the value of the XP penalty game mechanic. Are the lost players worth it to keep a certain feel for the game or to help prevent players getting to level 100? Who knows? Certainly not us players. It might not even be something the devs will truly know, but they're still the ones with the power to change things if they feel it'd be good for the game. Whether it turns out good for the game is another story, and we all know of instances where the devs thought something would be good but it ended up being detrimental to the game experience (D3's auction house, anyone?). No amount of game experience is going to show us the actual numbers regarding how that game mechanic plays out for the entirely of the player base. All we players have are anecdotes, and the plural of anecdotes isn't data. I guess we need to ask GGG some questions. What purpose does the XP penalty serve? Is that purpose actually justified and good for the game? Is there perhaps a better alternative? Would that alternative be practical to implement? Is the player loss from the XP penalty meaningful in the grand scheme of things? Why is GGG so hellbent on preventing people from reaching 100 anyway? Or on the flip side, why do players seem to give that magic number so much prestige? It's not like there's much of any actual power gained through passives at that time. |
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" I'd like to see the numbers on how many people have quit PoE because of: 1. Reaching 100 and then, "I'm bored...no challenge left!" - versus - 2. Total frustration from XP loss, desynch, bad RNG, party lag, shitty trade system; and/or boredom from mindless days of monotonous grinding the same content w/o much reward. I'd bet #1 can be measured in the dozens, while #2 can be measured in the thousands. |
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Might be true. On the other hand that comperission ist pritty useless. The Xestion is are there more people quitting because of the stuff u mentiont then there are people staying becouse of it?
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" Even if there are more people staying than leaving, perhaps there are tweaks GGG can do to help keep more people and prevent more from leaving. |
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In an attempt to try to correct some misunderstandings, I will resurrect this thread from before the weekend.
Spoiler
Consistently in your answers, you keep on throwing around this whole SC/HC dichotomy, even though its something that the devs don't even know what it understands (or Chris for that matter)
PoE is not a hardcore game, nor is D2 nor is D3. PoE is a game that punishes you more if you don't do content that is currently FOTM (and this applies to SC or HC), however if you have the knowledge of what you need to do (which is very easy to get), PoE is actually easier. Its easier than D2, and arguably easier than D3 (depending on what your definition of easy is) Actual hardcore games are games that don't give you a choice in difficulty, in the multiplayer sphere these are games like Dota2/SC/SC2/CS. In those games, if some content is harder (i.e. you are versing someone that is better than you), you lose, straight and simple. There is no "grinding in lower level areas" to avoid difficult content, there is no "legacy drops that makes gives you significant" advantage. This is where you are wrong, you are confusing hardcore with competitive. The multiplayer games you listed above are example of competitive games, not hardcore games. Hardcore games are games that are designed to be difficult and made to be played on another level, such as perma death, much like HC in poe, its even in the NAME of the leagues\descriptions. No where does league say its HC, as a matter of fact it appeals to "casual" players much like Heros of the Storm does, because of how EASY it is not only to get into, but play, at least to some degree. So please understand when I say hardcore its the DEFINITION of hardcore, both literally and in terms of actual "punishing" playstyle. If you are saying the definition of hardcore is a competitive game, then I will agree PoE for the most part isn't hardcore, by that definition, but no one should be using that definition to define PoE or really any game. Furthermore we are discussion the "hardcore" effect\mentality, specifically perma-death\non perma-death in relation to the death penalty. " It is based on the principles of hardcores from early 2000's, mainly D1\D2, with other elements placed in. How on earth are you using the 90's sense and then going around and saying League of Legends is a hardcore game, you've lost any and all credibility as a poster IMO, saying that probably the most casual "moba" is actually a hardcore game. " "stupidly designed" Yet you've offered no valid alternatives or even gone in detail on why its "bad" Alt+f4 works in lots of games, if you can react to the challenge quick enough to escape the "death" then you've "avoided" the death. This game is an online one and as such you have issues that need compensated by. For example yesterday I was doing dom runs and on my screen I was doing fine until my ping spiked, FPS dropped and people in mumble screaming at me because on their screens my HP was falling, it wasn't until 2-3 seconds later I saw my hp drop, potted and logged out. The fact that PoE is an online game restricts the devs from removing mechanics like this, even a game like D2 had logout, but then again you don't think its a hardcore game. " Compare it to what games, you are saying League of Legends is a hardcore game. Not only are you wrong its simple so far from being a hardcore game that you've lost all credibility in any part of your post. Its a COMPETITIVE game, that doesn't make it a hardcore game. " This just goes to further prove how wrong you are, the difference between level 90 and 100 is HUGE, some builds can reach 30% or more effective life\dps\ect just from those last skill points. The XP penalty is just a number, one that many players can overcome, yet instead they, like you choose to complain instead of doing something else. This is the largest issue between understanding the game PoE is and the one you "sc" players want it to be. " And to think, after the calling of LoL a hardcore game you couldn't of said anything else as "ignorant" Saying D2 level 30-40 is complete is just asinine, that is roughly early nightmare difficulty or if you are newer to the D2 scene you would be killing and doing baal runs then (IN NORMAL DIFFICULTY) Please explain why you think level 30-40 is the endgame in D2. " Just because melee skills in poe aren't always the traditional 0 range builds, doesn't mean melee isn't still up close combat. " "overly invested" After watching numerous builds over the past 2 weeks get posted on reddit with sub 4k life in SC, I would wager that most people in warbands simple go DPS>surviability. Not only that the price of "no life" unqiues like maligaros gloves, rats nest, ect all further prove that point. Please share with us these "trees" used so often in SC that have all these points in defenses. " How is the death penalty restricting some sc players but not others, you can't have it both ways. HC players lose VASTLY more in terms of time and money then SC players can even imagine, which just also proves how out of tough you are with the state of "HC" in this game. " What games, you can't just say other ARPG and not list personal experiences, the whole point of feedback is to SHARE YOUR EXPERIENCES not just make generalized statements. " Here is where you are confused, you think I said the death penalty makes poe hardcore, I didn't say that. I said PoE is a hardcore like game, has a playstyle even dedicated to it. The designers of the game decided to would be wise to offer a "less hardcore" playstyle, but still wanted SC players to build balanced characters and didn't want the different leagues to have vastly different playstyles, I mean we are playing the same game after all. " " Not balanced in the traditional "power" level, but are in the fact that they both have suriviability and DPS. " Not true at all, while some people overlevel, it doesn't force people to do so, look at the race for the laptop at the start of tempest and tell me people overleveled. You can't, not only that not all hardcore players are "experts" at this game, considering you have 1 shot and you are dead people are going to be more conservative. Not only that I don't think you've ever played HC in poe or at least never had success so what you view HC as in PoE really means very little.
Spoiler
3. When you say "balanced", you mean a build that "allocates a bit more offense than defense". In PoE, successful builds always try to
- Cap one or two forms of defense that isn't life (evasion/block/armor) - Cap one or two forms of your health buffer (life/ES/combination) - Cap and over cap resistances (this is mandatory, if you dont have at minimum 75/75/75 res, you aren't going anywhere) - Ontop of all of the above, using some flat damage reduction (EC/MoM/LC/Arctic) If you actually wrote it down logically, and defined what is mandatory to succeed PoE. You will see, its not just some defense and some offense (what you are implying when you say balanced), it is actually "defense is always first priority, add as much offense as you need just to progress". (This is mainly due to being able to abuse stacking/strong boxes/baiting to multiply out your damage to work with having lower DPS) - Sometimes the above doesn't always imply, always usually due to some broken item being introduced (i.e. atziri gloves), but then it always reverts to this when the content is fixed You list various forms of previous defensive layering, congrats what exactly is your point? " Yes because zerging of bosses is really an issue, please tell me how deing to dominus 10 times is a "bad thing" for people that play in SC leagues. Random deaths, you mean the same ones that happen to HC players that don't complain the XP penalty is too high? The death penalty prevents you from leveling a "shit build" simple put pre 80 its an absolute joke, pre 90 its not but losing at most a few hours of maps. Please by all means try to argue otherwise, but I don't think you can as your highest character isn't but 81 or 82. The fact you are here complaining about the XP penalty at that level goes to further increase the merits of your misunderstandings, (like calling LoL a hardcore game). " Why re-invent the wheel, it served a purpose before and can again. " Where are you getting this information from, PoE was designed to be a HC game, both from a perma death standpoint and a balance standpoint, the fact that it has a SC league\playstyle is an afterthought\effect. " You are comparing different game modes to the "main" part of the game. Why on earth would you do that, maybe if you would stop and think for a second you would realize they balance PoE's main game as a whole, keeping both SC\HC in mind when they make changes, it might just be, if you think about it that they want both HC and SC players playing the SAME GAME. They don't have to do any separate balancing in HC\SC leagues, if they balance the game as a whole. " This is where both me and the devs will disagree with you, not to mention many others. As stated many times before your view is vastly different then mine and obviously your experiences are as well. " TIME BASED PENALTIES WILL NEVER WORK, not only that your claim that the only solution to the penalty is yours in order for the game to be hardcore is quite frankly horse shit. Please stop with this nonsense. " Its not just numbers that need tweaked, time based penalties are crap, they encourage players to take a break in order to avoid the penalty, how exactly is not playing the game solving the issue where a player made a mistake? How exactly is that going to stop your so called biggest issue with the penalty, which is zerging. " "historically" and you can only name a few changes, most of which were already something they wanted or knew they would have to do. Chris specifically said they released malachai in a more difficult state because they can tune back his difficulty later, but increasing it is MUCH more difficult. Divination cards are really an uninteresting way to "scam" the community out of money, especially after the changes to make previously rarer unqiues, that were made more common a few patches ago, rare again. This deserves its own post, but divination cards, in the form of community supported "designs" are a hoax and one that steeps to a whole nother level. " Yet pre 2.0, so pre lockstep, pre predictive mode improvements, balance changes, ect the topic was highly discussed and was answered in the Q\A with "we are happy with the current penalty" So contrary to your belief, just because a topic has traction doesn't mean it will always go the way of the "complainers" especially if GGG feels like its previous adjustments on this topic have already netted changes. " Lol so any change that isn't what you view as acceptable is just a "bandaid" instead of you know what the rest of us would call it, an adjustment. Then again you think a time based penalty is the best and you haven't reached a level in which the penalty really even hurts. " I ask you to list an ARPG and you list mobas and RTS. I specifically asked you to list ARPG games that used lockstep, yet you can't. The games you listed have pretty much no relative mechanics, they are completely different genre of games. Again you are missing the point that they didn't feel like lockstep would be the best connection method, given the fact most players are used to no delay imput in ARPG games, it doesn't matter if other game genres used it, it matters that PoE is literally the first of its kind to do so. " Please FIND ME SIMILAR GAMES, that is literally what I asked you to do, instead you bring up bullshit comparisons, do you compare pinapples to chicken often? " You mean when you play in a game method which cannot desync that you don't desync anymore, mind = blown. It has to do with the method of connecting and sending information, here is where I don't think you have an idea of the differences between the methods.
Spoiler
" " It is not. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The delay in an ARPG for the most part is less noticeable then originally thought, but the DELAY IS STILL THERE, while in predictive mode, when it works perfectly, there is no delay in imput, you are playing a local version of the game and the server is checking with the client, vs lockstep where you control a character on the server and the imput delay is based on 1/2 your latency. I cannot stress how wrong you are by disagreeing with my statement that lockstep isn't as good as a PERFECTLY working predictive mode client. " The damage to the economy was actually minuscule, compare the current chaos: exalt ratios in warbands and tell me that eternals caused issues. No the issues in temp leagues had to do with instance crashing and exploits not the orbs themselves. They gave the "rich" something to invest into, something to buy up into, but instead SC players have nothing and people just horde exalts because its the only "high" currency people can invest into aside from mirrors, which are out of reach for most players. The creation of 5+t1 items in temp leagues was A)rare or b) only possible with exploits, if they fix that then GGG had little reason to remove the orbs. Like I said I don't doubt they will be readded in some capacity in the future. " More people play PoE then they played D2, that alone is reason why RMT is more prevelat, not to mention the "internet" is vastly different then it was back in early 2000s. " I see that explains why you think the moba genre is hardcore. (pro tip it isn't) You have an issue when people call poe a hardcore game, you are both in the wrong forums, and the wrong genre of game. No one and I mean no one calls dota 2 or league hardcore games, they have high skill caps, but that isn't the end all indicator of a hardcore game. If anything the XP penalty goes to further prove GGG wants the min skill level to progress to be high enough, whereas in a game like Dota 2 anyone can play. But its fine you have vastly different experiences then me, you go about as offtopic as you can and still not get "removed", which is also fine. When it comes down to it, I don't think you've shared any relative personal experiences, such as explaining your highest level characters, mapping experiences, "cheated deaths" ect to give us much feedback as you have, considering the volume and the relevance you've posted all we know about you is you have a vastly different view on reality then most. Try some of these: level a character to 90 actually play d2 past level 40, better yet kill hell baal (no wonder why you said poe is more difficult) Try to level a character to 80 in a hc league Type /deaths and report back here with your highest level character Explain how the death penalty negatively effects YOU, why its detrimental to you, instead of using the logic of "restriction" I want first person responses. https://youtu.be/T9kygXtkh10?t=285
FeelsBadMan Remove MF from POE, make juiced map the new MF. |
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OK, I did not read the entire enourmous wall of text above me, but I thought a bit about the argument that the death penalty is required because this is is a competitive game. I will give an experience from someone who just happens to sit on a connection that is not very stable. Now, please do not tell me to get a better connection, because getting a reliably stable connection is pretty much impossible where I live (South America / Chile).
So yesterday, I tried to level my witch a bit. I was level 81 and tried to get to level 82 for a few hours (!). It did not work. Why not? I died to a sudden lag spike in a channel map when I had 99% experience. I had died a few times before, so I was playing careful, but nothing saves you when there is a >3 second lag spike. Since it is possible to level in Dried Lake when you are level 81 (it is just slow), I went there. Everything there is super easy. I also adjusted to playing very defensively and slow, and also practically as a ranger (Faster Projectiles + projectile speed from gear and passives, 20% quality Incinerate). I went up to 97% and died again. Not to Voll. To some random white mobs. Now you can of course say that maybe I am just not skilled enough or that I am too squishy. I actually thought at that point that my character was squishy. She has 3800 HP, Lightning Coil and Taste of Hate. I died a few more times and got frustrated, so I went on to read a book. Later that night, I went back online. Connection stabilized (stable 150ms latency). The gaming experience was entirely different. With the same character, same gear, leveling was a breeze. I got to level 84 (gained 3 levels) pretty quickly, did not die even once. And I did not do lame stuff like Dried Lake or level 70 maps, but ran a bunch of 75 maps, one with 170% IIQ or so and the mods you would expect on such a map. I also ran Acton's Nightmare and Poorjoy's Asylum, twice each, in a group. Especially Poorjoy's is pretty punishing. Both party members (both higher level) died several times, I didn't. Also learned that Flame Dash actually is a really nice skill if you are synched correctly. I do not think my character is squishy any more. So here is my question to all those that think that death penalty is required because of this game being competitive: Shouldn't everyone have the same chances in a competitive game? On a bad connection, you already have a disadvantage. The death penalty makes it just impossible to play competitively at all. I am not saying it should be removed, but please, when you comment, think about the circumstances others are in, too. And please also don't give me the stupid "special snowflake" comment again, I am pretty sure I am not the only one playing in South America. Or generally on a bad connection. Anyways, in conclusion, if you want the game to be competitive and fair, you should be against the death penalty, not supporting it. Unless of course you are on a good connection and want to have an advantage. Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
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