Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion

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Just fucking wait, even if 1/2 of what you say is true now 1/2 won't be later, no one reads the whole fucking thread before they post in it, so its truly pointless to argue your 1/2 valid points when you can make a much more educated assessment after act 4.

It is quite the generalization to assume nobody reads the whole thread.
Moreso of a generalization that nobody reads the first page(s) and the last page(s).

As mobs aren't being removed from the game and core mechanics have yet to be changed, I don't really see why most of this will suddenly become untrue.
In any case, the developers in GGG will know which ones are still relevant and hence can get some meaningful feedback from this thread.

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And I will stick to what I do, repeat myself as I must, as long as those that wish to change the game for the worst are aware of the downsides to there LOL games too hard attitude.

You assume that people immediately want to change the game for the worse, would I be safe to assume that you are defending a broken mechanic?
People here are offering feedback, some have offered suggestions.
You targeted far more than just the suggestions but also the feedback; it is intellectually dishonest to criticize and attempt to nullify honest feedback from relevant stakeholders.

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Its so nice you put the number all prior to 80, when you made the point of merciless, so how about a more fine number such as 55-80 that quit. EVEN if its a very large number, those are the sorts of player the game SHOULDN'T be catering to. Its not hard to follow someones build and progress, removing the death penality won't save those players from the inability to gear or plan properly, your suggestion is throwing a bandaid at a broken leg, not going to do much to fix players leaving, that in itself is a separate issue.

Who are you to determine who this game should and should not cater to?
The developers decide that and they have not said that they shouldn't cater to people who don't like experience penalties on death.
"Inability" has nothing to do with it and it's getting to the point of ad hominem to imply that every single opposing point is from somebody who is unable to gear/plan adequately; which is just short of madness to suggest.

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2 78 maps is really nothing, if that is something major to you then you shouldnt be running 78 maps, hell at your level 88 you can run 75s and still get "ok" experience. I leveled many characters to 90 without chaining 78 maps.

You need to add "In your opinion".
Stating something as fact when it is an opinion doesn't drive a point.
My definition of an "ok" experience is vastly different to yours it seems, many of the other posters in this thread (most of from when I was reading it) would also have different opinions on "ok" experiences.

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They can ask people, believe it or not I was once a noob and I asked questions. Hell there is this site you might not be aware of but its called google.com basically type any question you want answered and it finds it for you.

New players die to something they view as bullshit (forgive the language), they don't have to keep trying to work it out but may just want to quit.
Many people quit d3 because of silly stupid mechanics like jailer gibbing from off screen; incidentally people made similar arguments to support that "mechanic".
It isn't yours or my place to criticize them for that.
GGG has already reduced the penalty because at that time it was significant, who is to say whether or not it is still significant except for them?
Was the virtue of the game shunned or lost when that reduction in the penalty occurred?

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Playerbase is nothing if the virtue of the game is destroyed in the process.

The constant hyperbole that if one concept that many find unnecessary is removed the virtue of the game is gone.
Woe be to you, who needs exp loss on death for a game to be virtuous.
Enough of the slippery slope crap.

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Its completely relevant when you are discussing death as this unavoidable and unplayable monster with desync and devourers. I can make that point every single day of the week.

So because people play hardcore, it is therefore unreasonable to assume that a softcore character (who isn't built purely to stay alive in every foreseeable circumstance) could die to the same thing?
It must be the softcore characters fault for dying, as hardcore characters don't die

Perhaps I need to elaborate further on why this line of argument is irrelevant, but I won't have the time right now.

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If you are concerned with time sync then obviously you are playing the wrong genre. I am not saying you have to level to 100, but if your problem is with the penalty one that is widely accepted as a non factor pre level 80 (for most people pre 90) then your issues are different then most, which IS the quest to 100.

No, it is time sink (assuming of course that was an attempt at correcting me).
A time sink doesn't necessarily mean a redundant time sink.
Leveling to 100 with a singular character takes considerable amounts of game hours, this is not changing for anyone who is really trying hard to level.
Dying itself denies time that could have been spent killing things and removes opportunities at experience through portals in group play.
Dying itself has a punishment already built in, the additional experience losses may need to be looked at.

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I disagree that this topic needs discussed, its completely asinine to beat the fucking horse to death

An ad nauseam fallacy.
If you do not wish to engage in this discussion, nobody is forcing you to.
As long as people perceive it as an issue, it will receive a feedback in the part of the forum that is designated for feedback.
Trying to stop people giving honest feedback is like putting your hands to your ears and singing lalalala there's no problems here.
You may be right that there isn't a problem, but there most certainly is something that many posters here at minimum think is a problem.

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== Solutions ==
I believe a good game never takes from the player, only provides, and limits that provision based on the player’s skill, time, energy, and effort. Also, for those who enjoy and thrive in a highly challenging environment, PoE already has hardcore-mode gameplay as a solution.
Below are two approaches to correct the death penalty punishment issue:

Complete Removal: just remove the experience loss completely. Would this really cause problems? It’s so difficult to level past 90 anyway, what sort of impact would this have? I believe it would be negligible.

Reward for not dying: provide a buff to the player based on how long it has been since they died. The philosophy behind this approach is: don’t take from the player, but enhance them for playing skillfully.

Solutions:
Don't die. ;___; No really, I'm serious. If you want to progress at the very end levels, you CANNOT die. You don't go "it takes me that and that many hours to 10%", but you just simply don't take a death as an option!

Complete removal:
No. Getting to level 100 is not simply spending enough time grinding, but you need proper gear/build and SKILL to not die for so long, to actually get level 100. And it would have GIANT impact - full-DPS glass cannons, because they have the best clear speed? Check.
Never get any tankiness, because why would you? (gimping your clear speed? LEL) Check.
Vaal Pact-Crits everywhere? Check. Reflect? Pfffffff, map mods? Pfffffff...
I get it, people who wants to play without dying can go on hardcore, but honestly I don't want this game to turn into farmville. Getting higher levels should take skill, and simply spending enough time. Getting to level 80 is easy, and for most events around here it is enough. Nobody ever said you have to get to the max level.
Also, it would be massively uncool to all people who got to level 100 with this "hard-mode" on, and now after its gone, everyone can just slowly progress towards that point, disregarding many factors the level 100's had to take into consideration.

Reward for not dying:
Death penalty is called penalty for a reason. What would we call this? "Survival reward"?

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andrehbg wrote:

lol, u are level 80, post again when u are 90+, until 85 death penalty is barelly noticeable compared to 90+

And when I get there, if I haven't worked out how to survive or notice-and-avoid all the things that have been killing me, why should I go any further?
Clearly my judgement on what is worth facing and what isn't will need a sharp wake up call.

For the person spouting the 'game never takes' stuff, if the thing keeping me from progressing because I'm being an idiot is taken from me I'll be mad.

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goetzjam wrote:

@andrehbg

If you are willing and capable of mapping groups are around, at least in the guild I'm in. Market price is not a dictation of how "dead" a league is, but rather how saturated that market is. What items exactly are you referring to?

As for your so called claim that people wish for this game to remain hardcore will ruin it and the playerbase you couldn't be more wrong. The whole reason why PoE is as popular as it is the hardcore design of the game. Without a penalty for death then build choices become less meaningful.


You mention the penalty doesn't matter until 90+ when your highest level character is 90, what right do you have to discredit his experience when yours isn't that much higher?

Wrong, the game is "popular" due its deepnes, gem system and skill tree, man, this game is free to play, diablo 3 has a lot, i mean, a lot more players, and u have to spend 80 bucks to play it, and before u say something, i dont play diablo 3 anymore, maybe when they release the new sets, companys seens to b 8 or 80, i like the playustyle of diablo, the rift system and all, much better them map system on PoE, the drop system is also very good, but it lacks a passive tree, character costumization, why cant some company designe a game with the best of both worlds???? if someone does u will never ever see me again on poe foruns with sugestions............

yes, and that support what i said, over 90 its a damm shit, before, not that much, thats why i dont bother levleing over 90, and i have 3 chars at 90, and if u play u know that 80-90 is a huge difference.............

ooooh man, those GGG white knights

I'm supprised you are even discussing anything, Chris said in the Q&A that he is happy with the death penelty, it's not very likely it will change no matter what is said here.

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CajNatalie wrote:

And when I get there, if I haven't worked out how to survive or notice-and-avoid all the things that have been killing me, why should I go any further?
Clearly my judgement on what is worth facing and what isn't will need a sharp wake up call.

For the person spouting the 'game never takes' stuff, if the thing keeping me from progressing because I'm being an idiot is taken from me I'll be mad.

If you don't enjoy trying harder and learning new stuff, but instead you like clicking on stuff for them to die - I'd say PoE is not for you. This game is not (and hopefully will not be) about "who can grind for the longest time" but instead the knowledge and skill counts. Yes, play time is a factor, but if you don't know what you are doing (or simply don't want to learn, ever) you won't get far even with highest amount of time.

Death penalty serves its purpose and is to stay.

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Perq wrote:

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CajNatalie wrote:

And when I get there, if I haven't worked out how to survive or notice-and-avoid all the things that have been killing me, why should I go any further?
Clearly my judgement on what is worth facing and what isn't will need a sharp wake up call.

For the person spouting the 'game never takes' stuff, if the thing keeping me from progressing because I'm being an idiot is taken from me I'll be mad.

If you don't enjoy trying harder and learning new stuff, but instead you like clicking on stuff for them to die - I'd say PoE is not for you. This game is not (and hopefully will not be) about "who can grind for the longest time" but instead the knowledge and skill counts. Yes, play time is a factor, but if you don't know what you are doing (or simply don't want to learn, ever) you won't get far even with highest amount of time.

Death penalty serves its purpose and is to stay.

To whom are you replying, I mean what even...?!
I just said I don't want them to take the penalty away from me.

If I'm still dying to the same things by the time I hit 90 I don't deserve to keep leveling.

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In any case, the developers in GGG will know which ones are still relevant and hence can get some meaningful feedback from this thread.

What makes you think they will magically change there mind if Chris just said on the Q\A that the penalty is fine?

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You assume that people immediately want to change the game for the worse, would I be safe to assume that you are defending a broken mechanic?
People here are offering feedback, some have offered suggestions.
You targeted far more than just the suggestions but also the feedback; it is intellectually dishonest to criticize and attempt to nullify honest feedback from relevant stakeholders.

Its not just my assumption that removing the penalty for death will change the game for the worst many other people share this opinion. No I dont think the majority of people that are wanting it changed are malicious in intent, but rather don't see how this game design choice GGG made promotes a more D2 style of defenses vs other ARPG that have basically NO penalty for death.

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Who are you to determine who this game should and should not cater to?
The developers decide that and they have not said that they shouldn't cater to people who don't like experience penalties on death.
"Inability" has nothing to do with it and it's getting to the point of ad hominem to imply that every single opposing point is from somebody who is unable to gear/plan adequately; which is just short of madness to suggest.

I am a long time supporter of the game, I've read many post, listened to Chris talk about the design of the game, we wouldn't be having this conversation 2 years ago. If GGG wanted this game to cater to players that throw in the towel before asking for help or using you know that website I mentioned they could have added ingame information, instead they rather players discover things for themselves.

Either way your issue of gear walls when changing difficulties is something that can be addressed outside of the death penalty and something that masters has already improved. If a player is deing repeatedly and you believe not leveling is what is holding them back from continue to play that is WRONG. Why on earth would you continue to play a game where your character dies constantly, death without a penalty won't solve this issue, please think about that whole concept before you reply.

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You need to add "In your opinion".
Stating something as fact when it is an opinion doesn't drive a point.
My definition of an "ok" experience is vastly different to yours it seems, many of the other posters in this thread (most of from when I was reading it) would also have different opinions on "ok" experiences.

I don't need to add in "in my opinion" Your not in a position to tell me if 2 78 maps are worth more then nothing, you haven't even leveled a character to the point where 78 maps are necessary to level at a decent pace.

Then define your definition of OK experience. I've leveled tons of characters to 90 not chaining 77-78 maps, so I can tell you from personal experience you gain decent enough XP to progress without paying for those really high level maps. Then again cost shouldn't be a factor in determining if the death penalty should be removed\adjusted.

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New players die to something they view as bullshit (forgive the language), they don't have to keep trying to work it out but may just want to quit.
Many people quit d3 because of silly stupid mechanics like jailer gibbing from off screen; incidentally people made similar arguments to support that "mechanic".
It isn't yours or my place to criticize them for that.
GGG has already reduced the penalty because at that time it was significant, who is to say whether or not it is still significant except for them?
Was the virtue of the game shunned or lost when that reduction in the penalty occurred?

We are all adults here, feel free to use language to enhance your point(s). I played D3, I am very well aware of the stupid mechanics that were in the game to start. That argument if it was already reduced once and the game is still fine, why not reduce it again won't work with me. Its completely unnecessary to do here is why.

Higher level maps then before, this means you get more XP per map\hour, easier to recover from a death.

CWDT, granted this is changing in some form or fashion in Act 4, part of the whole reason why this thread should wait until that patch is tested before discussing again.

Even self cast EC\IC is very strong.

Carto boxes, while rare still provide a boost of maps into the economy making sustaining high level maps cost effective and possible.

I'm sure there are more, but those alone are strong enough reasons to not reduce the penality as GGG has either purposely or by chance made it easier to level with those changes.

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The constant hyperbole that if one concept that many find unnecessary is removed the virtue of the game is gone.
Woe be to you, who needs exp loss on death for a game to be virtuous.
Enough of the slippery slope crap.

I am sure some longtime supports of the game agree with my statement, what is the purpose of supporting a game if its removing every bit of difficulty it can to "cater to more people" GGG isn't struggling I don't forsee the game struggling, is D3 vastly larger, yes its a AAA company with very polished graphics and gameplay, but is it PoE no, is PoE D3 no. Is there anything PoE can take from D3, not really just learn from the mistakes they've made.

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So because people play hardcore, it is therefore unreasonable to assume that a softcore character (who isn't built purely to stay alive in every foreseeable circumstance) could die to the same thing?
It must be the softcore characters fault for dying, as hardcore characters don't die

Hardcore characters do die, the whole point here is that softcore characters should build almost exactly the same, the difference is one is perma death and the other is a setback of XP, think of PoE as a hardcore ARPG with a softcore league, that is the intent with the design of the game.

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Dying itself denies time that could have been spent killing things and removes opportunities at experience through portals in group play.

People rarely party or at least do full parties for the past 2 leagues so the point that this is a valid penalty in itself is not.

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Dying itself has a punishment already built in, the additional experience losses may need to be looked at.

It has no real punishment, you can't sit here and tell me otherwise, at least not without some argument to attempt to back up that bold statement.

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I disagree that this topic needs discussed, its completely asinine to beat the fucking horse to death

An ad nauseam fallacy.
If you do not wish to engage in this discussion, nobody is forcing you to.
As long as people perceive it as an issue, it will receive a feedback in the part of the forum that is designated for feedback.
Trying to stop people giving honest feedback is like putting your hands to your ears and singing lalalala there's no problems here.

You may be right that there isn't a problem, but there most certainly is something that many posters here at minimum think is a problem

I believe you took my quote a bit out of context, I think the topic can be revisited AFTER Act 4, but its pointless to address here and now, it won't change for Act 4 and Act 4 WILL CHANGE A LOT OF THINGS.

@andrehbg

I don't even know how to respond to you, you make a claim that D3 has a better map system and item drop system then PoE, we are on completely opposite spectrum here. D3's rifts are not maps, they cost nothing to do, its like running ledge and eventually getting a boss at the end that drops loot, that isn't diverse thats simply a linear map.

D3's drops are shit, absolutely dog shit. When you can get a complete set of gear in less then a week without trading, without any investment, just level to 70, run rifts until you gamble away your collectings, thats not itemization its the illusion of items and choices. Most classes only have 1 "set" thats any good.

Account bound items is just a terrible design choice, Blizzard decided it wasn't wise to make money off item drops anymore, so completely removed the ability for people trade because its very well known people will pay money to get items if its possible, if they can't make money off of it, no one can.

D3 is a very well polished in terms of gameplay\lag\ect, but lacks any sort of depth, you know what the penalty for deing there is? Basically nothing, on top of nothing (which is gold, lol irrelevant now) They have passives and items and even items that give passives that are "cheat death" with cool-downs. My firebird wizard just doesn't die, even if she does (when im doing high grifts) the only penalty that appears is an increased respawn timer, which has some impact on how far you can progress, but thats not a penalty, thats just a wall which you eventually can overcome and you lost nothing in the process.

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What makes you think they will magically change there mind if Chris just said on the Q\A that the penalty is fine?

Who is to say that he doesn't want further feedback on it, from different people?
I haven't heard him say or imply anything of the sort, or anyone from GGG.

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Its not just my assumption that removing the penalty for death will change the game for the worst many other people share this opinion. No I dont think the majority of people that are wanting it changed are malicious in intent, but rather don't see how this game design choice GGG made promotes a more D2 style of defenses vs other ARPG that have basically NO penalty for death.

Can we stop using the extreme of no penalty versus current penalty?
Extremes are always a horrible way of doing a comparison, I have never said that I wanted no penalty on death and nor has anybody who I've quoted in any of my posts.

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I am a long time supporter of the game, I've read many post, listened to Chris talk about the design of the game, we wouldn't be having this conversation 2 years ago. If GGG wanted this game to cater to players that throw in the towel before asking for help or using you know that website I mentioned they could have added ingame information, instead they rather players discover things for themselves.

10% penalty being modified or changed has nothing to do with any of those, though.
The point was that players do quit and that it is really up to GGG on whether or not they want to do anything, but feedback is feedback and is always at least somewhat useful to them.

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Either way your issue of gear walls when changing difficulties is something that can be addressed outside of the death penalty and something that masters has already improved. If a player is deing repeatedly and you believe not leveling is what is holding them back from continue to play that is WRONG. Why on earth would you continue to play a game where your character dies constantly, death without a penalty won't solve this issue, please think about that whole concept before you reply.

Again with the no penalty debate; I haven't said that I didn't want a penalty.
Also people have differing opinions about "constantly".
It would eventually get to the stage where if you died once every 5 hours the experience penalty would shut down your leveling.

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I don't need to add in "in my opinion" Your not in a position to tell me if 2 78 maps are worth more then nothing, you haven't even leveled a character to the point where 78 maps are necessary to level at a decent pace.

In your opinion.
You're not in a position where you get to tell me what is and isn't my place or what position I am in.

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Higher level maps then before, this means you get more XP per map\hour, easier to recover from a death.

CWDT, granted this is changing in some form or fashion in Act 4, part of the whole reason why this thread should wait until that patch is tested before discussing again.

Even self cast EC\IC is very strong.

Carto boxes, while rare still provide a boost of maps into the economy making sustaining high level maps cost effective and possible.

I'm sure there are more, but those alone are strong enough reasons to not reduce the penality as GGG has either purposely or by chance made it easier to level with those changes.

So because higher level maps are in greater abundance (higher level maps = harder maps = more experience/better rewards), the game is therefore defined as easier to level with?
The risk/reward makeup of this game is unlikely to change much and as such people would instead look to other related points, such as the current 10% penalty on death.

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I am sure some longtime supports of the game agree with my statement, what is the purpose of supporting a game if its removing every bit of difficulty it can to "cater to more people" GGG isn't struggling I don't forsee the game struggling, is D3 vastly larger, yes its a AAA company with very polished graphics and gameplay, but is it PoE no, is PoE D3 no. Is there anything PoE can take from D3, not really just learn from the mistakes they've made.

I am sure some longtime supporters would also disagree, this doesn't really mean much.
Diablo 3's mistake certainly wasn't not having a 10% experience penalty on death.

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It has no real punishment, you can't sit here and tell me otherwise, at least not without some argument to attempt to back up that bold statement.

Considerably slowed clearing speed on big maps, loss of portals/failure of missions/getting "stuck" in any choke with a bad RNG rare/exile.
Exiles alone ensure that glass cannon players would hate their lives.

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I believe you took my quote a bit out of context, I think the topic can be revisited AFTER Act 4, but its pointless to address here and now, it won't change for Act 4 and Act 4 WILL CHANGE A LOT OF THINGS.

Yes Act 4 will change a lot of things, yet this discussion is still there to be had.
Possible unknown changes for the future doesn't prevent current feedback and nor should it.
If you do not wish to see these threads, then you do not have to venture inside them.