Death Penalty Adjustment Discussion

Despite being a Level 80 self found player who lost 50% today testing against a new boss...
Don't remove the penalty. Don't even think about it, GGG!

Maybe lower it 1% per level from 91 (9%) to 99 (1%).
That I'd love to see, even if I'm not close to those levels at all.

Buffing people who don't die seems awesome until you look at Hardcore, then well players who can survive this game would feel like they're getting easy treatment with accelerated leveling.

I wish there was a way to recover at least part of the lost experience. That way one at least could recover the HP is one learns something about the battle.

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goetzjam wrote:

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andrehbg wrote:

i agree with the OP, death penalty is really dumb and boring, i really liked the non-dying buff idea.........i guess its a reflex of poor endgame, and they think they will kp people interested on playing by making it hard to achive, but in truth, the oposite occours, many people give up cze the reward is not proportional to the effort. if you dont belive me, look the playerbase, permanent leagues looks like a ghost town.

Why must you revive a thread that can wait until Act 4 changes to be discussed intelligently, this isn't going to change before then so talking about it really is quite pointless.


Its not that great of an idea TBH, its very similar to what D3 does in rewarding not deing for a period of time, but lets be honest here, its not a penalty at all, but rather some discouragement from deing which doesn't fit PoE's hardcore mentality.

Standard is very much alive I can promise you that much. Go into Act 3 merciless look at the parties, filter without wtb\wts and people are playing. Right now is probably the lowest its been because 1 month is going on for sick MTX (not really IMO, but most like it) Regular HC has been dead since the introduction of HC temp leagues, it will always remain so because the players that enjoy HC, enjoy a ladder\economy reset as well.

There are almost no map parties for exemple, i know what i am talking about, selling enything became hard as hell, 2-3 ex itens are selling for 30 chaos cze no one is buying, i was playing before the 1 month, it was as empty as now, i have 100 friends on friendlist, and i can c only about 5-7 on line, and all playing 1 month, those playing the race wasnt playing before it started, and i aways cleam my friendlist fdo add new people, people dont want to face the truth, its sad, bcz i like many aspects on this game, but as long as this game kps this OMG i am so hardcore mentality, it will have a low playerbase, for omg i am so hardcore players there are hardcore leagues.........

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CajNatalie wrote:

Despite being a Level 80 self found player who lost 50% today testing against a new boss...
Don't remove the penalty. Don't even think about it, GGG!

Maybe lower it 1% per level from 91 (9%) to 99 (1%).
That I'd love to see, even if I'm not close to those levels at all.

Buffing people who don't die seems awesome until you look at Hardcore, then well players who can survive this game would feel like they're getting easy treatment with accelerated leveling.

lol, u are level 80, post again when u are 90+, until 85 death penalty is barelly noticeable compared to 90+

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First of all they would need to have a reason to test this, this was already covered in the 70 page thread less then a month ago. Why on earth would GGG test the penality if they thought it was fine, why would they make the game easier and less punishing for making a build that doesn't have enough defenses?

Why are you convinced on trying to get GGG to change a core principle that PoE is a hardcore ARPG game?

Rolls eyes, if your wife or friend are unwilling to play the game because it penalizes deing, pretty weak early and strong late, then they aren't the demographic that GGG is catering this game to, so why change just for the masses?

Also there is no going back from those characters that get level 100 "easily" in the league. Level 100 would go from being an achievement to being something that takes time, no planning, building a balanced character, ect.

If the XP loss was an issue GGG thinks they need addressed then why would Chris say the penalty was fine?

Yes we've heard your opinion, many many times this thread (and in the other).
We understand that you firmly believe that it is fine and support Chris's statement on it.

Now can we please move on and stop with the rehashed posts saying exactly the same thing? It ceased to contribute to the discussion when it was repeated albeit in different wording.

Chris saying it's fine, doesn't really change the feedback on it.
The feedback on it is relevant and so is players opinions, it wouldn't be the first time a developer has changed their mind based upon player feedback.

My opinion:
The death penalty is aggravating, especially when leveling; this is due to many reasons.

One such reason is the spike in difficulty during merciless, sure it's fine if you die 20 times whilst leveling as the game gives you enough exp to accommodate it; this still makes for a frustrating leveling experience even when properly using a balanced build.

Another reason is that a lot of mechanics in this game stack up for instant kills, which should not occur without sufficient signs; an example of this would be devourers gibbing you after you got stunned, or you being desynced back into the pack of them and dying almost instantly.
This would be fine if there wasn't a harsh time penalty on every occurrence and I expect that it will get far worse when CWDT EC/IC is broken in act 4.

The last reason is that the time spent on regaining experience isn't fun as it doesn't provide anything for me to learn, nor does it provide an additional challenge; it only provides an additional time requirement.

@andrehbg

If you are willing and capable of mapping groups are around, at least in the guild I'm in. Market price is not a dictation of how "dead" a league is, but rather how saturated that market is. What items exactly are you referring to?

As for your so called claim that people wish for this game to remain hardcore will ruin it and the playerbase you couldn't be more wrong. The whole reason why PoE is as popular as it is the hardcore design of the game. Without a penalty for death then build choices become less meaningful.


You mention the penalty doesn't matter until 90+ when your highest level character is 90, what right do you have to discredit his experience when yours isn't that much higher?

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Chris saying it's fine, doesn't really change the feedback on it.

But it should, its like beating the horse to death. If he just said it was fine then they aren't even looking at it for an act 4 change, so until act 4 its COMPLETELY pointless to discuss this. They are changing zones and maps around with it, that will most likely have an impact on the death penalty discussion.

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The feedback on it is relevant and so is players opinions, it wouldn't be the first time a developer has changed their mind based upon player feedback.

Its relevant, but because I am arguing against your view or for the status quo I'm not allowed to repeat myself but the arguments for changing it are repeating, don't you see how asinine that sounds?

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The death penalty is aggravating, especially when leveling; this is due to many reasons.

The penalty means jack shit pre 80, really no real effect until 90. So please don't use that bullshit excuse for "leveling"

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One such reason is the spike in difficulty during merciless, sure it's fine if you die 20 times whilst leveling as the game gives you enough exp to accommodate it; this still makes for a frustrating leveling experience even when properly using a balanced build.

This is a threshold all players must cross, but even deing a few times as you level to docks in merciless shouldn't be that big of a deal. Take proper life nodes, get resists on gear (much easier with masters now) Make sure you have the appropriate resistance for the area you are doing.

Cold for mervil, lightning in act 2 and fire in act 3 (docks) Of course you don't want to have any lower then you can possibly have but the key element is necessary to have capped for specific quest areas in those acts.

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Another reason is that a lot of mechanics in this game stack up for instant kills, which should not occur without sufficient signs; an example of this would be devourers gibbing you after you got stunned, or you being desynced back into the pack of them and dying almost instantly.
This would be fine if there wasn't a harsh time penalty on every occurrence and I expect that it will get far worse when CWDT EC/IC is broken in act 4.

You know there were ways of triggering those devourers before everyone ran around with cwdt right? Desync is not an excuse to remove the penalty, if it were we should just remove hardcore while were at it, I mean if softcore people can't deal with desync deaths how in the world could hardcore players deal with it?

Your highest level character is 88? I mean if we were going by people that support your claim to remove or adjust it according to andrehbg you need to be level 90 before being able to add anything of value to the discussion.

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The last reason is that the time spent on regaining experience isn't fun as it doesn't provide anything for me to learn, nor does it provide an additional challenge; it only provides an additional time requirement.

Death isn't suppose to be fun, its suppose to remind you to play carefully, build carefully (aka have enough life\resistances) and do your best to survive. It only provides an additional time requirement if you die, people can get to level 100 without deing a single time, but here you are complaining about having to spend additional time to level because for some reason you can build a character to level past 88, please re-evaluate yourself and your goals before you claim that the penalty should be removed\adjusted.


You've added nothing original to this or the previous 70 + page discussion, which is why I reply to these threads, even if I repeat myself I still get the ability to put you in the proper place.

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But it should, its like beating the horse to death. If he just said it was fine then they aren't even looking at it for an act 4 change, so until act 4 its COMPLETELY pointless to discuss this. They are changing zones and maps around with it, that will most likely have an impact on the death penalty discussion.

But it isn't completely pointless.
Many things in this game will still be there when act 4 comes out, act 4 won't suddenly remove every discussed point of order.

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Its relevant, but because I am arguing against your view or for the status quo I'm not allowed to repeat myself but the arguments for changing it are repeating, don't you see how asinine that sounds?

You're allowed to repeat yourself, but consider that you've contributed the most posts to this thread and they have consistently been you saying the same thing; I would stick to my statement.

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The penalty means jack shit pre 80, really no real effect until 90. So please don't use that bullshit excuse for "leveling"

Does it?
No, of course it does.
GGG would have data on that as well, how many people quit prior to 80?
Exactly.
I wouldn't consider losing 2 full cleared 78 maps of experience due to dying from being desynced back into a pack of angry mobs "Jack Shit", nor would many.

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This is a threshold all players must cross, but even deing a few times as you level to docks in merciless shouldn't be that big of a deal. Take proper life nodes, get resists on gear (much easier with masters now) Make sure you have the appropriate resistance for the area you are doing.

Cold for mervil, lightning in act 2 and fire in act 3 (docks) Of course you don't want to have any lower then you can possibly have but the key element is necessary to have capped for specific quest areas in those acts.

New players don't know this and most likely won't until they get up to the boss and summarily get stuck on them.
Doesn't change the fact that by that stage they will have lost many hours of leveling.

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You know there were ways of triggering those devourers before everyone ran around with cwdt right? Desync is not an excuse to remove the penalty, if it were we should just remove hardcore while were at it, I mean if softcore people can't deal with desync deaths how in the world could hardcore players deal with it?

Yes...
Doesn't mean it's fine though, nor does it mean that it's impossible to build around.
Hardcore players aren't relevant to a softcore discussion as I did not say it would be impossible not to die to them.

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Death isn't suppose to be fun, its suppose to remind you to play carefully, build carefully (aka have enough life\resistances) and do your best to survive. It only provides an additional time requirement if you die, people can get to level 100 without deing a single time,

The point of death is being discussed in this thread.
Stating that the point is something and then arguing that it is that something is simply making your argument a circular one.

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but here you are complaining about having to spend additional time to level because for some reason you can build a character to level past 88, please re-evaluate yourself and your goals before you claim that the penalty should be removed\adjusted.

I should re-evaluate my goals because I didn't wish to level to 100?
What does that have to do with the exp penalty, which is prevalent at all stages of merciless?
No, I don't need to re-evaluate it, nor am I stuck at 88; I simply don't want to level him further as the time sink will only get more extreme with level.

@goetz: what exactly do you expect might happen in 1.4 that would alter the situation, as such to warrant postponing discussion until post-patch? At most, the only thing we can speculate is that the content level cap will raise slightly; the sole (relevant) effect is a proportionate increase to the effective level floor where "problems" begin to become more apparent.

The dismissal might as well be "this isn't worth discussing now, so why don't we wait until Act 4 and not discuss it some more then too."

Just sayin ;)

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But it isn't completely pointless.
Many things in this game will still be there when act 4 comes out, act 4 won't suddenly remove every discussed point of order.

And those points may change with act 4, so you are speaking now on something that will have some changes to the discussion on something that will for sure not be changed until after act 4. Don't you think its a little bit asinine to try and discuss something that the developer just said was fine and already had a 70+ page thread about it until after act 4?

Just fucking wait, even if 1/2 of what you say is true now 1/2 won't be later, no one reads the whole fucking thread before they post in it, so its truly pointless to argue your 1/2 valid points when you can make a much more educated assessment after act 4.

Playerbase is nothing if the virtue of the game is destroyed in the process.

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You're allowed to repeat yourself, but consider that you've contributed the most posts to this thread and they have consistently been you saying the same thing; I would stick to my statement.

And I will stick to what I do, repeat myself as I must, as long as those that wish to change the game for the worst are aware of the downsides to there LOL games too hard attitude.

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Does it?
No, of course it does.
GGG would have data on that as well, how many people quit prior to 80?
Exactly.

Its so nice you put the number all prior to 80, when you made the point of merciless, so how about a more fine number such as 55-80 that quit. EVEN if its a very large number, those are the sorts of player the game SHOULDN'T be catering to. Its not hard to follow someones build and progress, removing the death penality won't save those players from the inability to gear or plan properly, your suggestion is throwing a bandaid at a broken leg, not going to do much to fix players leaving, that in itself is a separate issue.

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I wouldn't consider losing 2 full cleared 78 maps of experience due to dying from being desynced back into a pack of angry mobs "Jack Shit", nor would many.

2 78 maps is really nothing, if that is something major to you then you shouldnt be running 78 maps, hell at your level 88 you can run 75s and still get "ok" experience. I leveled many characters to 90 without chaining 78 maps.

If its desync then you should learn to play with it better, many players have issues with it, but thats not an excuse to remove a design feature of the game. Learn to play with it or find a game that doesn't punish deaths, this one should always have a harsh penalty for death.

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New players don't know this and most likely won't until they get up to the boss and summarily get stuck on them.
Doesn't change the fact that by that stage they will have lost many hours of leveling.

They can ask people, believe it or not I was once a noob and I asked questions. Hell there is this site you might not be aware of but its called google.com basically type any question you want answered and it finds it for you.

Seriously though if this is the argument you want to make then perhaps you aren't seeing the whole design of the game to have players discover things for themselves. Could GGG add ingame help\wiki or something to answer these questions, probably, but they haven't found it necessary yet. Either way this point is more for giving players an easy way to have there questions answered rather then removing\adjusting the penalty for death.

Many hours of leveling is nothing (and your claim is bullshit pre 80), you lose such a small amount of XP pre 80 its almost completely negated by an hour of gameplay in the appropriate zone.

Let me reiterate this point:

Playerbase is nothing if the virtue of the game is destroyed in the process.

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Yes...
Doesn't mean it's fine though, nor does it mean that it's impossible to build around.
Hardcore players aren't relevant to a softcore discussion as I did not say it would be impossible not to die to them.

Its completely relevant when you are discussing death as this unavoidable and unplayable monster with desync and devourers. I can make that point every single day of the week.

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I should re-evaluate my goals because I didn't wish to level to 100?
What does that have to do with the exp penalty, which is prevalent at all stages of merciless?
No, I don't need to re-evaluate it, nor am I stuck at 88; I simply don't want to level him further as the time sink will only get more extreme with level.

If you are concerned with time sync then obviously you are playing the wrong genre. I am not saying you have to level to 100, but if your problem is with the penalty one that is widely accepted as a non factor pre level 80 (for most people pre 90) then your issues are different then most, which IS the quest to 100.

Either way I disagree that the penality needs adjusted, I disagree that this topic needs discussed, its completely asinine to beat the fucking horse to death when the dev just said its fine. That means it won't be changed in act 4, we know zones are changing, we know more passive skill points are likely, why not wait until we can have a reasonable discussion on the state of the game with as much relevant information as possible instead of going around in circles in this ignorant ass "its fine" "no its not" pissing contest.

@pants your line works well...

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The dismissal might as well be "this isn't worth discussing now, so why don't we wait until Act 4 and not discuss it some more then too."

Of course I would be more open to discussing it then, the amount of stuff that is expected or hinted to change plays a huge factor in discussing it later...