D3 Dev's Lessons Learned - How Relevant to PoE?

"

CharanJaydemyr wrote:

"

saltyvu wrote:

D3 has that arcade-like feeling to it. Good game if don't want to mess with min/maxing your guy.

It's really good fun on console. Great brawler.

Amusingly, the much-maligned Dragon's Crown, also a fantasy brawler, has a more robust, in-depth item system than D3.

PoE is no brawler, which is why I find these comparison threads really tiresome. It's like saying 'this is a woman, that is a woman, let's compare the two!' even though one's a vapid supermodel and the other's a fucking math nerd.

Maybe that supermodel is also a math nerd....one can dream. :)

"

k1rage wrote:

I actually liked D3 up until reaper of souls

ROS kinda ruined it for me, basically being forced into self found dident work for me

Good point. I should caveat that it was ROS that soured me to D3 -- I did enjoy D3 prior to that expansion (before I knew what POE was).

Blessings in disguise are great.

"

saltyvu wrote:

D3 has that arcade-like feeling to it. Good game if don't want to mess with min/maxing your guy.

thats exactly the attitude why i couldnt get my friends to play poe

"after a 10+ hour workday i want to sit down and kill monster not theorize for hours how to kill them in the best way and learning how to play the game first"

i share charans statement getting the dissapointed d3 fraction to play poe was a big part for the success of poe
if d3 would have been a d2 in 2012 grafic layout poe wouldnt had a chance to get noticed thats for sure

"

DirkAustin wrote:

What a way to twist his point. No cookies for ya.

Way to take an obvious joke and pretend it was twisting anything. Keep your cookies, I make my own...and they are damn good. :)

It's funny how stupid a company can be. They had the most perfect ARPG ever in D2 then they come to us 10 years later with some ridiculous creation that's worse in every way and to make things worse they butcher it even more by doing a 180 and eliminating trading.

D3 was the biggest disappointment in gaming of the last decade for me. That's what happens when you let incompetent people try to design a game, they should have kept Blizzard North to make D3, everyone will forget but Jay Wilson absolutely killed the diablo franchise.

"

mrpetrov wrote:

Snorkle, you're right in many areas, except I don't agree with you that D3 "end game" as you define it (ie the part of the game which, as you correctly point out, narrows to a couple of major builds per class - with some minor tweaks around those builds).

Running 45+GR Solo is what I'd say is end-game solo in D3 right now. For GR45+ solo, I agree that D3 has relatively little build variety per class. However, that is not, in my view, the equivalent of running 75+ maps.

If you want to farm T6, then there are many, many, more viable builds in D3 that those couple of "end game" builds. One of the key differences is that D3 has an endless dungeon - while PoE...doesn't. It has Uber Atziri. How many really materially different builds can take down Uber Atziri (I don't know the answer, I've never even taken down Atziri, let alone UA)?

I suspect that if you had an endlessly scaling end-game in PoE, you'd see a not totally dissimilar narrowing of viable builds here too.

Thats true, its a very valid point, its as much or more a failure is the grifting system as a way of measuring competition in the game in terms of what allows builds to be viable as it is the balance of the actual skills. Tbh I feel going back to my comparison you could take down uber with more builds on a ranger than you could tackle 45+ grifts with across all classes in diablo 3. T6 rifts you can take down with a range of builds for sure, but its like that chasing the tail effect where grifts have sort of succeeded nrifts in the games competitive play the way legendaries succeeded rares making them completely second class and in turn ancient legendaries have done the same to normal legendaries.

I honestly feel like the real way to enjoy D3 is not to even look at it in a competitive light, to just enjoy playing with the items and builds in a completely single player mindset. Thats fine, thats what I am doing, im having a lot of fun in the game for sure with this mindset. But I feel like diablo kind of had that anyway, it needed the rift system because A3 alk runs were just awful as an endgame, it needed the map system for endgame, its got that now. But the whole thing of taking out the p2w rmah, giving the game competitive ladders etc has failed in its current state because its 99% a gear check to compete on any of those levels, a check for very specific items which is pure rng. Like people complain about rng in poe but actually its far less of an rng game than d3 is, far less of a gear check. Mathil took down atziri in Ambush before anyone with mirrored gear on softcore did it, he took it down with virtually nothing because hes a smart player and a skilled player, theres no scope for that in d3 its basically a dice roll game, you roll a 6, get the drop and you win the ladders, you get the world firsts, the top ranks, you roll anything else you fail. Its got virtually nothing to do with how skilled or smart you are. They replaced the guy with the biggest credit card 'winning' with the guy who drops the ancient blade of prophecy and then gets the right pylons in his rift winning, its still completely meaningless in terms of being a game and having people who are good at the game or bad at the game. HvR and Etup are going to dominate the next Hc league, I can tell you that right now without having to wait to see what rng they get and theres nothing anyone with a big credit card can pay for to get ahead of them.

Part of that is also down to the desync hiding, I think people underestimate that. If you do not have the gear, the ancient legendaries that will allow you to have enough life, resist and loh to tank those high rifts and the damage to kill them first you just die, often almost instantly because you cant kite 95% of the damage in D3. You get hit all the time by virtually everything in order to hide the fact that, like poe, youre always out of sync. PoE is way less of a gear check in that regard and more of a skill check, even a melee can kite mobs, hit and move, manually avoid 95% of the damage a guy who just tries to stand still and facetank will take. Those moments in poe where you get so out of sync that you start taking damage and you cant actually tell what exactly is hitting you, that is how diablo 3 plays all the time. In poe you can control that with shift and /oos, in d3 its unavoidable and becomes a virtual certainty that if you dont have the gear based defenses to facetank you literally cant play the content. They had to put cheat death cooldown passives/skills in D3 as a result of removing the ability to actually have the skill to avoid death yourself in most cases. Theres way more 1 shots, way less control of the combat and in virtually every way possible its more of a gear check.

HvR said it himself when he was playing d3 recently, he said he couldnt tell what he was taking damage from most of the time and he felt like he could play virtually any build in poe and be competitive on the ladder, where in D3 he was just mindlessly grinding until he found the items required to beat the competitive content for him. It had nothing to do with him as a player and everything to do with rng. People complain about gear checks and rng in poe, and honestly, no harm meant to anyone, I feel like most of those players are failing the skill and/or knowledge game and then failing to understand that is what is going wrong.

"

CharanJaydemyr wrote:

I feel bad for making out like the two are mutually exclusive. They're not. The math nerd is, in my eyes, much more aesthetically pleasing; the supermodel isn't entirely number-useless.

It's just that both don't really seem to care all that much about these 'lesser' qualities. PoE is aesthetically pleasing to me *because* it's not trying to be all gussied up and shiny. D3 is a lot of fun because it's not trying to be numerically complicated.

Two very different experiences, each with their own types of reward.

Of course, I certainly hope my derailing joke did not imply otherwise. The two things are not mutually exclusive, but traits that are not common on their own; let alone 'rolled' together. People do roll Tyrannical and Celebration though.

"

DirkAustin wrote:

"

D_nasty wrote:

It's funny how stupid a company can be. They had the most perfect ARPG ever in D2 then they come to us 10 years later with some ridiculous creation that's worse in every way and to make things worse they butcher it even more by doing a 180 and eliminating trading.

D3 was the biggest disappointment in gaming of the last decade for me. That's what happens when you let incompetent people try to design a game, they should have kept Blizzard North to make D3, everyone will forget but Jay Wilson absolutely killed the diablo franchise.

I take D3s self found over POEs noticeboard spam, trade chat spam and 3rd party sites any day.

That's why you're a casual. Games shouldn't be catered to people like you, especially games with so many loyal hardcore followers like the Diablo franchise had.

No one's forcing you to trade if you don't want to, but when you DO force everyone to play self-found that's the laziest path to game design you can take.

brb balancing game too hard
brb just make it self-found

The only thing I'm thankful for to D3 is that I made like $3k on the RMAH, never touched the game since they removed trading.