I'm Surprised to Find that Melee is Easy

if you plan on using WB as main damaging skill it wont be the low damage that fails you - it actually is pretty ok

it is the Pebble of Apocalypse and the Chair of Might that will get you.

desync with WB is ATROCIOUS and some tilesets are downright unplayable with it.

"

sidtherat wrote:

it is the Pebble of Apocalypse and the Chair of Might that will get you.

desync with WB is ATROCIOUS and some tilesets are downright unplayable with it.

Haha, right? I always thought WB as a main was useless because you get hung up on everything in tight spaces and random things in seemingly open spaces.

I think the main problem with melee is armour, it's just useless. Armour should be the best defensive mechanic (compared to eva/es) since mostly melees use it (and melee should have a defensive advantage) and it has more -mvspd penalty, but atm it's not only the worst, it's completely useless on high level (someone did the maths and found out 5-digit armour only give like ~20% phys dmg reduction on high level content iirc, that's less than what max end charges would give you). On top of that evasion has ondar's guile and acro/phase acro while armour has no defensive steroid keystones..

Iam Playing a cleave dual axe scion guys and iam lvl 85 on standard!The problem with melee is that you lack the depth of defensive options sometimes as you have t get straight into the fight.Only some very expensive and well tested builds can survive!

Also Melee characters cant easily focus on having extra defences as armor has to be a priority!So a quick example with medium end game gear.8K armor unbuffed 15k armor with grace! 30+k armor with flasks!

Now the first 8k armor gives you about 40% reduction to phys damage.
The 30+k armor (an impossible amount) give you about 70+% phys damage reduction!

If u also invest in armor its quite difficult to have good evasion.If u invest too much in life nodes you are gonna miss a lot of dps nodes!SO its a circle with no end!Thats my experience!

As i said only well optimized gear and builds (expensive builds) can play melee!

"

Fauxite wrote:

I think the main problem with melee is armour, it's just useless. Armour should be the best defensive mechanic (compared to eva/es) since mostly melees use it (and melee should have a defensive advantage) and it has more -mvspd penalty, but atm it's not only the worst, it's completely useless on high level (someone did the maths and found out 5-digit armour only give like ~20% phys dmg reduction on high level content iirc, that's less than what max end charges would give you). On top of that evasion has ondar's guile and acro/phase acro while armour has no defensive steroid keystones..

I think endurance charges are supposed to be armor's steroids. Endurance charges add +4% physical damage reduction while frenzy charges add +3% evasion, as opposed to say +3% chance to dodge attacks.

Also there is a passive node that adds another 4% physical damage reduction at the bottom of the tree near blood magic and stun cluster.

I could be wrong on some or all of those numbers btw.

"

BearCares wrote:

"

Fauxite wrote:

I think the main problem with melee is armour, it's just useless. Armour should be the best defensive mechanic (compared to eva/es) since mostly melees use it (and melee should have a defensive advantage) and it has more -mvspd penalty, but atm it's not only the worst, it's completely useless on high level (someone did the maths and found out 5-digit armour only give like ~20% phys dmg reduction on high level content iirc, that's less than what max end charges would give you). On top of that evasion has ondar's guile and acro/phase acro while armour has no defensive steroid keystones..

I think endurance charges are supposed to be armor's steroids. Endurance charges add +4% physical damage reduction while frenzy charges add +3% evasion, as opposed to say +3% chance to dodge attacks.

Also there is a passive node that adds another 4% physical damage reduction at the bottom of the tree near blood magic and stun cluster.

I could be wrong on some or all of those numbers btw.

Yeah but when armour itself is so useless, people just end up running the -%phys dmg stuff (like endurance charges) without caring much about the armour itself, because there's little difference anyway.

And that passive (soul of steel btw) is shite. Mostly because the other nodes in its cluster only gives armour, which is shite, and so the rest of the 4-point cost is wasted.

"

kompogiannitis wrote:

Iam Playing a cleave dual axe scion guys and iam lvl 85 on standard!The problem with melee is that you lack the depth of defensive options sometimes as you have t get straight into the fight.Only some very expensive and well tested builds can survive!

Also Melee characters cant easily focus on having extra defences as armor has to be a priority!So a quick example with medium end game gear.8K armor unbuffed 15k armor with grace! 30+k armor with flasks!

Now the first 8k armor gives you about 40% reduction to phys damage.
The 30+k armor (an impossible amount) give you about 70+% phys damage reduction!

If u also invest in armor its quite difficult to have good evasion.If u invest too much in life nodes you are gonna miss a lot of dps nodes!SO its a circle with no end!Thats my experience!

As i said only well optimized gear and builds (expensive builds) can play melee!

The % on the character page (for both armour and evasion) is very misleading, never trust them. The % reduced / chance to evade depends heavily on the enemy attacking you.

"

Hunt8722 wrote:

OP had a click bait title and instead of saying the above and having the next few posts ask about his gear, content he has done, and build, he could have said "My melee characters is tanky USING lightning coil, a staff with 12% block (because other 2 handers don't get that), taste of hate, and divination distillate to increase my max ele resists. I feel my character is very strong using static strike (melee skill not linked to melee splash but conc effect, another thread for a different day) and a 400dps staff. My staff even has 96% spell damage which works well with my crown of eyes."

We would have all probably agreed that with that stuff his character is tanky and strong and moved on.

but this is the problem mate, why should that make a difference?

"melee isnt tanky melee is shit!!!"

guy shows char thats tanky, good, and melee

"...yeah but thats using a lightning coil and a good weapon, so it doesnt count!"


...errrrr, wut? Cause that ranged char you are comparing it to thats using a coil... oh wait...


Melee doesnt do any damage and cant clear fast, and then people show it... Oh but thats ground slam, thats reave, thats not melee, melee is attacking 1 target at a time, show me it with double strike!

Its such nonsense. Right, tornado shot isnt archery, archery is firing 1 arrow, show me a build using single shot frenzy that clears maps well 1 target at a time... See! bows are shit! omg bows suck, this guy using non prolift single shot burning arrow that doesnt have a 1 chaos chest like lightning coil sucks!!! call the police!!! ggg must fix, fix bow naow!!!

Its so stupid, every time the excuses, X melee skill isnt melee, this melee doesnt count because he has a decent weapon, this melee doesnt count because hes suing a chest used in like 25% of ranged and melee builds, blah blah blah, this melee doesnt count ebcause you got a 2k armour chest and a 2k armour chest costs like, 2 chaos, what about people who dont have 5000 exalts hu? just nonsense.

"

Fauxite wrote:

Yeah but when armour itself is so useless

armour is good, Ive played with ti extensively, trust me its good and anyone showing you math against 10k+ physical hits etc is being silly because you might get hit with over 10k phys once a year if you play 6 hours a day every single day and happen to run a lvl74 Vaal Maze with totems + vulnerability and getting slammed by the Oversoul while its standing beside a sub phys aura. Against realistic fairly large physical hits armour builds mitigate more damage than legacy lightning coil evasion builds, way more than arctic armour mom builds, it does its job and GGG know it does its job. They may buff it slightly purely because everyones complaining but dont count on it.

"

kompogiannitis wrote:

Iam Playing a cleave dual axe scion guys and iam lvl 85 on standard!The problem with melee is that you lack the depth of defensive options sometimes as you have t get straight into the fight.Only some very expensive and well tested builds can survive!

Also Melee characters cant easily focus on having extra defences as armor has to be a priority!So a quick example with medium end game gear.8K armor unbuffed 15k armor with grace! 30+k armor with flasks!

Now the first 8k armor gives you about 40% reduction to phys damage.
The 30+k armor (an impossible amount) give you about 70+% phys damage reduction!

If u also invest in armor its quite difficult to have good evasion.If u invest too much in life nodes you are gonna miss a lot of dps nodes!SO its a circle with no end!Thats my experience!

As i said only well optimized gear and builds (expensive builds) can play melee!

what you say is a mixture of true and not so true. The 8k armour vs 30k is bang on, thats what you shouldnt bother getting 30k armour. Actually getting 30k is not an impossible amount, thats not true, and neither is it true that its hard to get good evasion along side good armour. I posted a hybrid armour ev build in a thread recently, the char has about 15k armour + 10k evasion, among other sizable defenses. It was questioned how 15k armour without Iron Reflexes was possible, and we basically mathed out that given armour values that would be present on mirror quality gear the build would have 23k armour, thats with no Iron Reflexes or Determination aura on a build that runs Grace for evasion, has ondars guile, has 6 endurance charges, soul of steel for 4% futher reduction, i think it was about 13% extra block from the tree and also has over 400% increased phys damage with swords and over 75% attack speed specced, 178% life, 7% life regen.

What you have noticed is spot on though, 8k armour vs 30k armour, the extra 22k armour doesnt give you as much reduction as the first 8k. But, the same is true for Evasion, 8k evasion gives you over half the amount of ev that pushing 30k is going to give you. So, why bother stacking either defense to those levels? If 10k armour and 10k evasion are the bulk of an armour or evasion build, why stack 20k of 1 or the other when you can stack 10k of both? You can hit 10k armour + 10k evasion on a 2H build with ondars guile, 6 endu, soul of steel etc. If you use a shield you can fairly easily hit 12k of both using items that cost a couple of chaos each.

You know why people dont do it? Because people on the forums say hybrid is shit, people who have never tried a proper hybrid build go around telling people not to spec it, even though they dont have a clue what theyre talking about. Just like people saying armours crap, they either tried it and did it wrong or they havent even tried it at all and just read someone saying "oh well when u get hit by 20k physical you need 5,000,000 armour to mitigate 30% of it so armour is shit duhhhh" or something other ridiculous statement.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

Hunt8722 wrote:

OP had a click bait title and instead of saying the above and having the next few posts ask about his gear, content he has done, and build, he could have said "My melee characters is tanky USING lightning coil, a staff with 12% block (because other 2 handers don't get that), taste of hate, and divination distillate to increase my max ele resists. I feel my character is very strong using static strike (melee skill not linked to melee splash but conc effect, another thread for a different day) and a 400dps staff. My staff even has 96% spell damage which works well with my crown of eyes."

We would have all probably agreed that with that stuff his character is tanky and strong and moved on.

but this is the problem mate, why should that make a difference?

Makes all the difference in the world!

You can't just go and group melee into one group. If melee needs a lightning coil, divination distillate, and taste of hate to be "easy" then it is not "easy". It is like those people saying game is "easy" yet they are using legacy saffel's frame, lvl 21 purities supported by lvl 3 empower, CI, and Immortal Call with all the duration nodes.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

They may buff it slightly purely because everyones complaining but dont count on it.

They won't buff Armour just because everyones complaining they will buff it if there is a problem which there is.

@Hunt - Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but from your tone it seems that you aren't building your characters vs. the game designers as you should. Don't let the in-game models fool you, the monsters aren't your true enemies, GGG is. It's a battle against game mechanics. Therefore I wouldn't understand the player who thinks of good flasks and good armor as a luxury when you've literally chosen to play a style that requires you to jump in the middle of packs over and over again and to face tank bosses as well.

Using rare armors that don't have the ability to convert physical damage to something else is less efficient because that's how GGG designed the game. These mechanics are the true boss that you'll have to defeat within all the maps that you play. Players shouldn't be distracted by Piety and Dominus.

That's why, in my opinion, I don't think I've done anything exceptional with the defenses I've chosen in this build.

"

BearCares wrote:

@Hunt - Maybe I'm being presumptuous, but from your tone it seems that you aren't building your characters vs. the game designers as you should. Don't let the in-game models fool you, the monsters aren't your true enemies, GGG is. It's a battle against game mechanics. Therefore I wouldn't understand the player who thinks of good flasks and good armor as a luxury when you've literally chosen to play a style that requires you to jump in the middle of packs over and over again and to face tank bosses as well.

Using rare armors that don't have the ability to convert physical damage to something else is less efficient because that's how GGG designed the game. These mechanics are the true boss that you'll have to defeat within all the maps that you play. Players shouldn't be distracted by Piety and Dominus.

That's why, in my opinion, I don't think I've done anything exceptional with the defenses I've chosen in this build.

Then what's the point of armour (the stat) existing in the game if it's useless and you're not supposed to use them, but you should stack life, use stuff like end charges, cwdt ic, lightning coil, taste of hate, mom, etc, and disregard armour? other than being a massive noob trap. Seems like horrible game design to me. And people wonder why the game's player base is declining.

Also, melee should have much better defenses than ranged - that's basic game design/balancing. Yet in this game, not so much.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

armour is good, Ive played with ti extensively, trust me its good and anyone showing you math against 10k+ physical hits etc is being silly because you might get hit with over 10k phys once a year if you play 6 hours a day every single day and happen to run a lvl74 Vaal Maze with totems + vulnerability and getting slammed by the Oversoul while its standing beside a sub phys aura. Against realistic fairly large physical hits armour builds mitigate more damage than legacy lightning coil evasion builds, way more than arctic armour mom builds, it does its job and GGG know it does its job. They may buff it slightly purely because everyones complaining but dont count on it.

Show me the maths, then. I've only seen evidence of the contrary.