Mechanics thread

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Not to get in the middle of the spat, but you really did some cherry picking in your formula.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. The context was slow weapons using an ele conversion ability. In that context you're more likely to put on a +%phys weapon, because it's the most efficient stat for slow weapons. I wanted to show that in this very specific context a +10% elemental node has more value than a +6% generic physi node. I also wanted to show that the catalyze cluster is extremely strong, because I've read more complaints about the catalyze nerf than I can stomach.

But hammer is right, all of this changes drastically with context. For example, take Ice bite. If you buy ice bite but don't set up around it, you gain hardly any DPS. Ice bite has to be set up properly. Ex: 1.7 rapier with 18-31 cold, added cold damage support? Ice bite wins far and away. Ex: 1.25 axe with 150% IPD, running wrath? Ice bite loses hands down, although wrath was a good choice.

To be clear for people who might be confused by how complex this all is: it probably seemed like I was saying IED always wins. That'd be misleading, though. IED is actually only good in the correct context. If you combine elemental bonuses properly you can MAKE them better than physical bonuses. That's the point I'm driving at.

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wxyjac wrote:

While I don't know how the rarer elemental mods on item play out, I disagree on elemental damage nodes being unreachable for anyone other than Templar. This build starts from shadow tree, packs a few es and crit nodes, ans still able to get a lot of elemental nodes.

In addition, there're aura to count on, even if your item fails to deliver a lot of elemental damage.

I'm not saying they're unreachable, but they're far enough out of the way for anyone except Templar that their advantage is limited. It's certainly easier to get added elemental damage (and in higher quantities) than it is to get added physical damage, which keeps those clusters quite valuable.

That said, I'd be shocked if you couldn't make that build stronger offensively by removing everything West of Deep Wisdom and replacing it with Critical Strike Chance/Damage nodes (especially with the high crit strike chance associated with wands).

I wouldn't know for certain without theory crafting it in a spreadsheet knowing all of the items and skills/supports with that build, but for me, forsaking elemental and grabbing Crit nodes that I was right next to (over by Shadow) made a huge difference in DPS (in a good way).

This of course would remove some defense and also Elemental Equilibrium, which is obviously a core part of that build, but simply for DPS sake, you could get more dps from those crit nodes and have more points to spend on energy shield...

Character screen DR% woes

If I chug both these flasks while at 6 stacks of endurance (yay for kaom's sign!!), the character screen tells me I have 26,000 armour and 90% DR.

But, if you're reading this thread you know that the character screen is extremely misleading. That figure is based on a very small "estimated" hit size. I'm level 58, and the character sheet bases my "estimated" reduction on a hit that damages me for 240. Isn't that a bit low? That's a very small number! I care far more about how much I'm reducing when I'm taking 800 damage at a time.

GGG has said they will eventually fix this - ie, give us a way to see exact stats for the last monster we were fighting - but for now it's useful for us to discuss how this works.

When do we actually CARE about DR?

Well, I had a screenshot of the Great White Beast chasing me, and a unique monkey with the %IPD aura standing right next to him, my healthbar at 30%. Definitely a scary situation. But I guess I didn't actually get the screenshot :(

Anyway, THIS is when I care about my DR, NOT when I have a pack of frenzy monkeys surrounding me but when a super-unique bear with IPD/2x map brutus appears. This situation matters so much more.

So let's see! In a controlled environment (room is clear)

case 1: 6 endurance, 2k armour, 61% DR on character screen. He hits me for an average of 350 damage. Solution: 49% DR, pre-mitigation it's ~700 damage.

case 2: 0 endurance, 2k armour, 31% DR on character screen. He hits me for about 550 damage. Solution: 19% DR, pre-mitigation it's ~700 damage.

Consistent, yes? Not proof that I am correct but it supports my reasoning somewhat.

So let's see, how much armour do I actually need to get 90% DR against this guy if he gets a 50% IPD buff? Now his hits are 1050 dmg each.

case 3: 6 endurance, ? armour, 1050 damage, actual 90% DR. Solution: 19,000 armour. Okay! So when I get both my flasks stacked up, I'm actually at 90% DR because those flasks combine to 26k armour. Good to know.

case 4: 0 endurance, ? armour, 1050 damage, actual 90% DR. Solution: 113,000 armour.

WOW. Without endurance you need over 110k armour rating to cap DR against a 1k hit. With endurance you only need about 20k armour, which anyone flasked like me can reach just through flask effects (wearing NO armour).

BUT wait! I don't have endurance, at all! And I can chug a granite to peg my DR at 90! It's not actually true, the game shows ME this as well. But my ACTUAL damage reduction, without endurance charges rolling, against a 1k hit, is only 55%. The links above all link to the same solver, so if you want to find out how much DR you're actually getting just plug in values.

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Malice wrote:

An easy to remember rule of thumb is that to achieve 50% damage reduction, you will need an armour rating equal to twelve times that of the damage being dealt. For example, to achieve 50% damage reduction against a 100 damage hit, you'll need 1200 armour.

Malice, I've pointed this out before, but I tend to be fairly wordy. This rule of thumb you have posted is very misleading, and people interpret it incorrectly. It should read:

"to achieve 50% damage reduction, you will need an armour rating equal to twenty-four times the amount of damage you receive per hit"

This is a very subtle distinction, but at 50% DR, damage received = 1/2 damage dealt. Think it over please. It annoys me every time i see it ^^. Your statement is actually 100% correct, but it's a rather useless statement because we are only shown damage post-mitigation. Your statement works off pre-mitigation damage.

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Zakaluka wrote:

This is a very subtle distinction, but at 50% DR, damage received = 1/2 damage dealt. Think it over please. It annoys me every time i see it ^^. Your statement is actually 100% correct, but it's a rather useless statement because we are only shown damage post-mitigation. Your statement works off pre-mitigation damage.

I have no problem with the actual formulation, it is the way it works ingame.

For example, i've got 10000 armour and i receive a hit which deals 2000 damage before mitigation.
The damage post mitigation are 1412. If i follow your statement i will need 33888 armour to achieve 50%DR for that hit, this is not correct (i will need only 24000).

@TehHammer
I'm not going to discuss any further on here as this is getting off topic. But if you're interested, this is my current build, and I welcome your pm if you want to discuss further on this matter.

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Kissan wrote:

For example, i've got 10000 armour and i receive a hit which deals 2000 damage before mitigation.
The damage post mitigation are 1412. If i follow your statement i will need 33888 armour to achieve 50%DR for that hit, this is not correct (i will need only 24000).

I will use your scenario and apply the formula.

R = A / ( A + 12D )
0.5 = 24000 / ( A * 12*2000 )

As you've stated, A=24,000. All well and good. Like I said, the statement is correct. But it's not USEFUL. What a player SEES is how much damage they TOOK, and they misinterpret how to apply this rule of thumb.

"Gosh, I just took 1200 damage from that hit. How much armour would I need to be at 50% reduction?" <---- this is what rules of thumb are used for, they take information that's easily available and give you a ballpark answer to the question. The answer doesn't have to be right, just close.

Most people would apply this rule of thumb and arrive at their answer: I need 14k armour to get 50% reduction. And this is absolutely wrong; you'd be closer to 37% reduction. As you've stated, the right answer is 24k. My wording would urge them towards 28k, which isn't entirely correct but it's much closer (54% reduction)

My rule:
M = D * ( 1 - R )
R = A / ( A + 12D )

1200 = D * 0.5
D = 2400 (<---- this bit is only wrong until you actually get R closer to 0.5)
0.5 = A / ( A + 28,000 )
A = 28,000

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Zakaluka wrote:

"

Kissan wrote:

For example, i've got 10000 armour and i receive a hit which deals 2000 damage before mitigation.
The damage post mitigation are 1412. If i follow your statement i will need 33888 armour to achieve 50%DR for that hit, this is not correct (i will need only 24000).

I will use your scenario and apply the formula.

R = A / ( A + 12D )
R = 24000 / ( 24000 * 12*2000 )

As you've stated, R = 50%. All well and good. Like I said, the statement is correct. But it's not USEFUL. What a player SEES is how much damage they TOOK, and they misinterpret how to apply this rule of thumb.

"Gosh, I just took 1200 damage from that hit. How much armour would I need to be at 50% reduction?" <---- this is what rules of thumb are used for, they take information that's easily available and give you a ballpark answer to the question. The answer doesn't have to be right, just close.

Most people would apply this rule of thumb and arrive at their answer: I need 14k armour to get 50% reduction. And this is 100% incorrect. As you've stated, the right answer is 24k. My wording would urge them towards 28k, which isn't entirely correct but it's much closer. The rule only actually works when you're already at 50% DR.

My rule:
M = D * ( 1 - R )
R = A / ( A + 12D )

1200 = D * 0.5
D = 2400 (<---- this bit is only wrong until you get R closer to 0.5)
0.5 = A / ( A + 28,000 )
A = 28,000

Ok, i had to think during 15 minutes to understand how you could find 14000. And just when i found you make an edit -_-.

Well, i think if a player read Malice post, he is smart enough to understand that his rule works on damage pre mitigation (i'm sure that many players think the %DR estimation is not an estimation but the true, but this is another problem).

Your statement is good for quickly estimate the amount of armour needed as you say in your post, but is not exact. All informations in Malice's post have to be exact, but it could be a usefull formula for a new comer's guide.

yeah sorry, when I think my post is done I preview it, read it, find a mistake, edit it, preview again, etc.

Always when I finally hit "post" I still keep finding something I don't like in my message and have to edit again. Not safe to reply to my posts for a few minutes, I have to always correct some mistake :)

wow, all these formulas are giving me a headache.

I think for now I'm just going to keep equipping the best gear I can find and have fun. I may not be as efficient at mowing down the monsters or even staying alive but so far my strategy has worked.

One thing that still really confuses me are things like endurance charges. I read about expending them - I'm quite confused on how to get them or use them. I'll go read the section on them a few more times.