The main source of frustation, especially for new players

"

Treffnix wrote:

So, what your point on socket colouring boils down to is:
- You want the max eva the game to offer
- You also want to use a main attack skill which require sockets which don't match eva gear whatsoever
- You want 5 such support gems

And you don't like the fact that this is very hard to achieve. Mate, what are your expectations? And what would they become if you have such gear? 8 sockets?

Really, you should expect to jump through many, many hoops for the ultimate BiS item you're looking for. Other people figure out what to do with great gear that they have or can get. Why don't you do that, too?

Sorry to sound so harsh, but if GGG caved in and gave everybody the BiS stuff, gear progression would stop too soon and then where's the fun in playing a looting game? I agree that the good but not BiS gear could become more accessible, but the BiS stuff should remain super rare.

Do not take the exception as the rule please. I do want that and I know it will be nearly impossible. My problem is teh acessibillity of 5L and 6L as well as recolouring sockets. I've explained before why this is a problem and what improvements it would bring to the gaem to change the access to such basic items because that is what it is. Basic required equipment that halts the progress of 90% of the builds. What players should be looking for is gear with better stats, gear that adapts better to the character, not just any piece of crap that they can finally set the 5L or 6L after reaching level 9999999999999999999999999999999 on their 50th character (a bit of exageration to drive the point across).

The point is. This doesn't makes the game hard or any harder. Dificulty is archieved through the interactions between monsters abillities and good AI. Making a game hard by not giving you even basic tools to play is a very artificial form of creating dificulty. It's saying, we can't do any better so instead of making a game that is actually hard, we are going to screw the player hard enough that he has to experience difficulty. Think about it.

 The OP has some very good observations on PoE about the endgame problems and yet the other side of the coin is that if we get to a god like build too early and then face roll most content that PoE could quickly become boring. For my own personal view on this the "goldilocks" zone is different than for many other players and see this as an asset that GGG can and should leverage. GGG could easily allow for more 5L and 6L drops which in turn allows for more level 100 builds and GGG should be actively encouraging this instead of suppressing this. I've posted several times that GGG should retire the build at level 100 with our exile being freed from Wraeclast and allowed to sail back to Oriath as a free person again (a cinematic ending would be great here). Then that retired exile is placed on the Freed Exile ladder with a copy of the level 100 gear and a link to the passive tree so others can see it and learn from it and theory craft their own next build (the ladder is ranked according to the time it took to reach level 100).

 GGG should be giving us more 5L and 6L drops and the ability to craft 5L in less than 150 fusings to open up PoE for more unique builds (same for 6L, 1500 fusings in insanely and outrageously high). Keeping PoE as is makes for more grind to get a 5L drop or a 5L craft with 150 fusings and we don't get to the all powerful godlike build too quickly but in doing this many, many players are lost along the way and build diversity is also being stifled. There is no way to know how many have quit PoE because the endgame rewards just weren't coming often enough for the 99% or the lack of 5L gear prevented progression and the leveling grind became too great for them.

 There is no doubt in my mind that GGG is too conservative (stingy) with 5L drops and forget 6L drops. I'm at 2 years and counting in PoE and to date have not gotten a 6L drop. I don't keep track of my playing time but I have to say it ranges from 20 to 30 hours a week.

 Here is my real world example. After my casual playing for just over 2 years I finally have a level 80 ES/Evasion Shadow (right, so what took so long I hear from the readers). Anyway I was playing that build and 3 days ago this dropped:

Last week this happened twice in the same zone:

Earlier this year I got this:

I have 1 other 5L gear in use on a poison arrow bow build so in my 2 years of playing I have a grand total of five 5L drops and zero 6L drops. The top elite players can go on and on why the very low level of 5L and 6L rewards is what makes for a hardcore arpg and they can also go on and on that with a good 4L build and good playing skills you don't need 5L or 6L gear. My current Shadow is making due with 4L gear only so yes it is doable. But it would be a lot more fun if GGG opened up PoE to more 5L gear drops and if I could even get a 6L to drop every 2 or 3 months that would be fantastic.

 The mods on my 5L gear are nothing to write home about so re-rolling the stats will be a must for me to use them and other than the excellent leveling Woodsplitter weapon I'm limited to evasion builds for the most part so no melee build with my meager 5Ls. I'll probably use the Woodsplitter on a ST build next year. Anyway, my point here is that with only self-found gear I'm extremely limited in 5L and no 6L so that takes away much of the build diversity that GGG highly touts in PoE. No, for this thread we are not discussing trading as a means to 5L or 6L gear.

 Then there is the other problem in that with any of my 5L gear I will need to get better mods for whatever build I choose next and then finally I'll need to get the right color combination to get maximum use out of the 5L gear. So GGG starts out by making 5L drops super rare, then makes scouring/alching to get better usable mods another RNG gamble and finally RNG chroming until I get the color combo I want. Since GGG champions all things RNG and hasn't provided a way to craft what we want in a reasonable time and with anything close to a reasonable amount of currency it's no wonder the drop out rate is so high. I do understand from the PoE hardcore camp that this is what makes for a great hardcore arpg and GGG certainly agrees with that philosophy but I believe that the full potential of PoE is lost right now. Achieving the status of D2 and the 100s of thousands more avid PoE players we'd have today if the 5L and 6L gear were more plentiful that more unique and fascinating builds would result from this, overall we'd have a larger fanbase, and in turn GGG should get more mtx purchases to ensure a long and healthy PoE life with many more years of new acts to eagerly await.

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Elhazzared wrote:

... My problem is teh acessibillity of 5L and 6L as well as recolouring sockets... such basic items...

And I guess this is where we have to agree to disagree. I only recently found my first 6L (been playing regularly since CB, so I guess my RNG sucks) and am actually not currently using it. Reason is that my current armour is better, even though it has "only" 5L. So the sockets vs affixes is a real trade-off, like somebody explained earlier. It would be a pity to lose that choice.

Good luck crafting your ultimate item. Do link it in the showcase thread if you ever get it! The jelly responses will make you feel really good :)

I'm personally hugely in favor of introducing new affixes relating to sockets.

Always has X sockets.
Always Y links.
Always has Z green sockets.
Always has Z blue sockets.
Always has Z red sockets.

Basically the choice to sacrifice one or more affixes for the sockets you need.

Natural 6-links will remain valuable for their additional effective affixes. But the option gets added to try funky builds that require additional links or off-color sockets by using an item with one of these affixes.

EDIT:

Also possible, to still allow gambling/crafting on them:

XXXX% increased chance for more sockets.
YYYY% increased chance for more links.
Favors red sockets. (rolls as if it was a pure str item of equal level)
Favors blue sockets.
Favors green sockets.
Favors red and blue sockets.
Favors red and green sockets.
Favors blue and green sockets.

To be fair, what you're saying would only apply if those items didn't increase your dmg output in multiples.

Out of curiosity, would you mind posting your EV spell build? I can't help but think you're experiencing problems that you equate with linking that isn't partly to blame on the tree.

Chroming off colors is something that I still have yet to make my mind up on yet. And I've been here awhile.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

The basic problem with the current system is it essentially MUST be tuned for min/maxers who can squeeze a lot of power out of 4L and turn into fucking faceroll gods with 5-6L. Meanwhile, those who would push the creative limits of the 5L-6L are stuck with 4L because the main means to acquire a 5-6L is to either create a boring farming build, trade aggressively or get very lucky.

I was one of those people who would love to be able to experiment freely with higher numbers of sockets than 4 when I started playing the game. Many months later after only ever having a 5L at the tops (and that was a bow, which my creativity ran short with) I gave up and started trying to squeeze the most power I can from 3 and 4 linked items. I am now one of the aforementioned minmaxers whose thoughts when given a 6L is "Now I'm unstoppable!".

The game pushed me away from trying to make fun builds and into trying to make the most damaging builds. I wanted to make a trapper that had arctic breath + LMP + GMP + Fork + Trap + Multitrap linked up together, but a 6L was unachievable other than lottery-winning chances with a fusing orb (as I don't trade). I did eventually get a 6L, but by the time I got one I was firmly in the mindset of "Who cares if it's amusing? I want conc effect + cold penetration" because I was so used to doing that with a 4L just to keep up with the monsters.

Build diversity is still around, but truly hilarious builds are strongly discouraged by the steepness of the game's difficulty and the ridiculous scarcity of even 5L items. You could triple the rate of 6L and 5L coming into the game and there would still be players who would never see one.

Yet another rambling post by me - I really should plan these out beforehand.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

To be fair, what you're saying would only apply if those items didn't increase your dmg output in multiples.

Out of curiosity, would you mind posting your EV spell build? I can't help but think you're experiencing problems that you equate with linking that isn't partly to blame on the tree.

Chroming off colors is something that I still have yet to make my mind up on yet. And I've been here awhile.

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgABAnEEswW1BukJIQkzDPcUTRUgFm8abB6BIuIi6iP2JKonYSj6Kk0wcTB8MgE1kjbpOkI8LT8nQYdH4krIS3hLjUz_TZJPfVFHUUxRYFINW_dh62KsbIxuqnpTfVt-4n8rgFaBr4LHjX2Nv5smm7Wdqp2uogCkOacIrEevbLEFshm0xbXytz64k7jQwuzDOsWKxq7KSs960IHRNtQj1orYvdo62j3dqOIs42rnC-jW6dXr7vAf87756PrS_gr_HBynDF9TpYM473w8Bb68guSQEYqvmuBFnVNSXh8=

Passive tree. Add cybil's paw, rathpith, stone of lahzwar and atziri's step. That is just a base build can be messed a little with. I intend to have tempest shield whith curse on hit and conductivity, that will raise my block by 4% so I can remove a 4% block node from the tree easily.

I think a *lot* of this is undercut by the fact that Tabula Rasa exists. If saving up 300 alts and converting them to an ex, then buying one, is something you'll never manage, then this game really isn't for you. It will never give you what you want - quick or guaranteed gratification. For the relative lack of guaranteed outcomes i'm quite grateful (notwithstanding that vorici can 6-link if you do the time to get the awesomesauce).

Tuning of fusing costs is therefore an exercise in how much pain you're willing to put up with to get something that feels awesome. This varies *massively* person to person. There are some people who would prefer you couldn't get to Atziri until you'd done 10,000 hours of grind. Thankfully they're not running the game.

I fully understand the point about preferring the game be more skill-based and less RNG, but to me the RNG is both the style of the game and covers some of the limitations of the game. With desync and latency, you can't give everyone a default 100k dps at lvl 80 and make mobs way way harder. The rate of dying to strongboxes and doors and all the other sources of desync would skyrocket, along with player discontent. Meanwhile all the 20ms guys would be filling the forums with posts along the lines of 'hay i never got desync why so sadz?! lol zomg i rekt yoo'

Someone mentioned they've never had a (non-tabula) 6-link drop above. You and the vast, vast, vast majority of people ;) And the last person I saw get a 6-link drop probably spent more trying to craft something useful off a crap base than they would have spent buying something useful.

A lot of people replying appear to have a form of Stockholm syndrome... some of the rest confuse 'addiction' with 'having fun'.

Of course, as ever, there are those that think that anything other than the status quo will be the downfall of the game (ya know, until GGG announces such a thing - then it's the greatest!).

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davidnn5 wrote:

I think a *lot* of this is undercut by the fact that Tabula Rasa exists. If saving up 300 alts and converting them to an ex, then buying one, is something you'll never manage, then this game really isn't for you. It will never give you what you want - quick or guaranteed gratification. For the relative lack of guaranteed outcomes i'm quite grateful (notwithstanding that vorici can 6-link if you do the time to get the awesomesauce).

Tuning of fusing costs is therefore an exercise in how much pain you're willing to put up with to get something that feels awesome. This varies *massively* person to person. There are some people who would prefer you couldn't get to Atziri until you'd done 10,000 hours of grind. Thankfully they're not running the game.

I fully understand the point about preferring the game be more skill-based and less RNG, but to me the RNG is both the style of the game and covers some of the limitations of the game. With desync and latency, you can't give everyone a default 100k dps at lvl 80 and make mobs way way harder. The rate of dying to strongboxes and doors and all the other sources of desync would skyrocket, along with player discontent. Meanwhile all the 20ms guys would be filling the forums with posts along the lines of 'hay i never got desync why so sadz?! lol zomg i rekt yoo'

Someone mentioned they've never had a (non-tabula) 6-link drop above. You and the vast, vast, vast majority of people ;) And the last person I saw get a 6-link drop probably spent more trying to craft something useful off a crap base than they would have spent buying something useful.

If only tabula rasa was an actually good item... Sure it allows you to test any 6L to your heart's content but enjoy it being devoid of any base defense type. If only tabula rasa had stats. I'd love for it to be a level 50 item with morphing stats. Basicly you chose which type of defense you wanted for it. Then sure, it would be a great item but as a completly blank slate (yes i know that's what the name means) it's not a good item. I could rare it but I'd never get %increase in the type of defense it gives... Granted I say links are more important than affixes and I do stand by my statement, this is because affixes are more easy to fix (to a minor or major degree) with alch/scou, but you still absolutly need the base stats because the chest piece covers in defense 2 or 3 times as much as any other single pieve and as such you can never lose the base value.