if u cant clear merciless with a 4L then ur bad at the game. mathil tornado shot clears 75 maps with a 4L.
No, it just means you don't want to do what others are doing. I completely see the OP's point and have discussed it with the devs on several occasions. 4L is indeed sufficient for those who are happy to use certain skills, but all that means is that 5-6L are considered a 'luxury' by those people and a 'necessity' by others who want to do things their own way -- which they should be able to, within reason, given it's supposed to be all about 'build diversity'.
The basic problem with the current system is it essentially MUST be tuned for min/maxers who can squeeze a lot of power out of 4L and turn into fucking faceroll gods with 5-6L. Meanwhile, those who would push the creative limits of the 5L-6L are stuck with 4L because the main means to acquire a 5-6L is to either create a boring farming build, trade aggressively or get very lucky.
This game is FULL of build diversity potential, but is for the most part unable to achieve that potential because it's not tuned for those who'd realise that diversity.
ARPGs typically have enough RNG from item-mod based rolls. Adding an extra layer that actually dictates which skills you can use and to what extent was a mistake on GGG's behalf, but it's a fundamental element to this game and you work around it...because, as ever, it's one of those things you put up with because the game itself is still better than its shortcomings.
Just to contextualise how stupid this system is, imagine reaching level 30 in Diablo 2 but being unable to use level 30 requirement skills. Now and then you get to roll a virtual dice to see if you can enable it or not (simulating RNG drops), and even if you do, you may have to take a hit in your stats (because in PoE sometimes you have to sacrifice good gear to get the sockets/links you need).
I'm sure it looked good on paper and it certainly seemed like a brilliant idea when I first encountered in during Closed Beta (mainly because D3 had dumped a similar, but far more streamlined, system), but before long the problematic nature of tying skill potential to gear made itself clear.
One of most heartfelt Charan posts ever, a genuine tour de force. Bravo!
You've changed your wording from 5L being "essential" or "needed" to just being desirable for more fun. That wording tweak is important.
It's good the game has something you want, something to strive for. What's more important: the journey or the destination? If you get what you want immediately with little effort there's no journey.
A 5L early on, as early as you hit cruel is essencial/needed for 95% of the builds.
No it's not (95%, come on...). You can't even sustain the mana for many 5l combinations at that point.
I can see your point and not having a 5l when you enter the first map can be frustrating but 5l at early cruel/6l at early merciless is a strange claim for me. One thing I like about fresh leagues is that I have to plan a build that works with limited means. Having only a 4l limits build choices, but so does not having a shavs and other things.
Now let's assume the game stays as it is but you get a guaranteed 5l in cruel. This would promote early build diversity but half decent builds will faceroll everything till maps or later. Many modern games are balanced so that you can progress easily with subpar builds. This has the big advantage that players who didn't plan a good build won't get frustrated at some point because they can't progress anymore. But at the same time it's a big middle finger to min-maxers. There are plenty of those games available, in all RPG subgenres. But PoE caters to people like me who want good build choices to matter. There can be no good choices without the existence of bad choices.
I know I won't convince you because we are just different in this regard, I just wanted to show you why this approach appeals to some people.
A build that not generally WORK with less (links); a build that can not be raised from the start with its own specific direction (aka lightning route for an arc build) - is a BAD, CRAPPY one.
5L is "needed" (or at least should be) just to increase your killspeed from low maps upwards (since you should be viable there before), and 6L is just to increase your survivability in the very late game.
(disclaimer: thats just for the vast majority of builds, some more specific setups are different from this, indeed. These could be 'extraordinary' fun, but if the others completely do not appeal you: your faulty assumptions)
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I'm a more experienced player so it may not fully count. But in a new hardcore league I often don't get a 4l until act 3 Cruel, or sometimes only in Merciless. Before that I run 2L or 3L.
Because:
A: It's not worth the fusing/jews.
B: It's not worth my time anyway since I usually level to level 70 in 2 days anyway. I prefer to waste as few currency as possible for leveling. But the 2nd character can obviously use the leveling gear from the first one.
C: If you REALLY need an early 4L, buy one from a vendor, they sell one more often than you might think. Just make sure that you don't buy a 4l strength glove when you need 4 blue sockets...
5L are CHEAP. Even in new leagues they are cheap (a few chaos at most at the start). Just don't expect a great base-item or high ilvl.
Also a 5L and 6L = PURE LUXURY! Most decent builds can do just fine with a 4L all the way to level 90. Sure a 5L or 6L will give you more damage/survivability but especially on softcore it's often not required. And if it is then you chose the wrong build to start with (I hope you don't create your own skill-tree as a newbie because that's a no-go).
Mana sustain and such are doable with a 3L or 4L. You just need to know what item mods to get and what passives at what point in the game. I understand that this can be hard for new players, if not impossible. As is the entire game to be honest. It takes a few months to 'master' and even longer before you can tell (without using the internet) if an item is worth selling to another player.
If you are new to the game and try to make your own build and then fail with a 4L it's really your own fault. I'm sorry but the POE tree is not like WoW or Diablo 3 where just about any tree works. A few points at the wrong place or at the wrong time and your leveling will be slowed by a factor of maybe 3 to 7 times.
The skill-tree is no joke. You must have a very thorough understanding of most game mechanics (and sometimes a decent amount of currency) before you can even think about creating your own build. Because you have absolutely no idea whether 10% elemental damage is better than the 3% fcr or do you? I bet you didn't do all the required math.
I'm a more experienced player so it may not fully count. But in a new hardcore league I often don't get a 4l until act 3 Cruel, or sometimes only in Merciless. Before that I run 2L or 3L.
Yes, this. In the race league I have 2 fuses and 5 jewellers, going with a 3L in act II cruel )
... buy a tabula rassa if u need 6L. or stop being bad and beat merciless with a 4L build.
It's a false statement. There are builds that could be fine with 4L, while others simply require 5L and it's hard call it "a luxury". Some caster builds can do even maps as 4L, but pick a random melee build and take a look what happens: the main skill (well, it's a must), multistrike (a must), splash (if not embedded in the skill it's a must), faster attacks (a must, unless there's high AS gain from other sources), MPD (a must). Can you count up to 5? Not to mention this random melee build already has 2 "less" multipliers, cut it somehow to 4 links and have fun with it. "Then choose another skill" won't do the work.
"
silverdash wrote:
Also a 5L and 6L = PURE LUXURY!
Pure BS. Late merci/lower maps simply require 5L. Yes, SOME builds may be fine with 4, but it's more likely an exception and more likely we speak about caster builds. Do you know what happens with those "5L hungry" builds at +76 content? Right, they begin to scream about 6L. Not that they can't without it, but quality of life, clearing speed and (passively) survivability improve significantly. Also a lot of skills can't deal with power creep with few links, game's different nowadays of what it used to be.
It's been discussed numerous times, access to 5L have to be somehow improved. Recipe should cost less. 6L recipe should cost less either. Otherwise at late merci players fall into a lose-lose situation: they either have to craft a 5L item, finishing with mediocre piece of crap, or to link an already existing item, wasting all the currency they gathered through the leveling process (with unknown results, they may fail bad !).
So there are reasons why new players leave in frustration while facing the zone level + needed gear requirements.
-they don't know how to bypass the requirements by optimizing the process
-they can't afford to buy linked average piece of gear
-they can't link it (no resources/RNG factor)
-they can't craft the item(no resources/RNG factor)
My computer>uninstall/change a program>Path of Exile>uninstall
Btw even experienced players suffer the same drawbacks, but to a lesser extent.
What an essay, dunno why bother.
Hello GGG. I wanted to address the major problem that any player encounters in this game.
Linked sockets!
Any player will start playing, learn the ropes and eventually make their first good character. they will keep playing, clear the normal with a 4link item which has their main attack.
Then they get to cruel and they are most likelly going to still be doing it with a 4link.
then they get to mercyless and they are still on a 4link. They just can't get a 5link or a 6link which are absolutly essencial to have a properly developed character.
Meanwhile the means to get a 5link and a 6link, especially with the colours you need is not just hard, it can be a major source of frustation, especially if you want to build something that is a little different.
While I can appreciate the random nature of this kind of games, there is only so much random a person will tolerate.
A frend of mine who has been playing for a fw days with me (little over a week) just quit becuase we were near the end of the first act on mercyless and he still had no 5link armor. In fact he had only 4links on things that weren't armor. He was starting to feel the dificulty of the game in it's full brute force by the simple fact that the very essecial things that are the core of the game not droping and everyone knows how stupidly expensive it is to try and buy 5/6 links on the market. Usually never less than an exalt.
I would like to propose that at very least this be changed. The sockets and links are 100% essencial to be able to play the game, let alone enjoy it. The masters are no help here. Vorici requires an exorbitante amount of orbs and favor to get your armour (possibly weapon if you also use a two handed weapon) up to scratch and even then he can only be so useful in getting the armour to the required number of sockets and links. He can help with the colours but again, very expensive, too much for a player who hasn't spent several hundreds if not thousands of hours.
So how could we change that? Vorici would have to give otehr bonus, be useful for something else and then we can change the orbs funtion.
Jeweller's orbs should have a way to increase the number of sockets on the item, not just re-roll. Maybe you need to spend a whole stack of 20 but it will guarantee an increase in number of sockets to what the armor had previously. This way you can get a 5 or 6 link with a certain degree of reliabillity and not spend too much. Alternatively just make a special orb that you can buy with 20 jeweller's if making the stack usage is too hard.
Following this the same would happen to the fusing. Having a way to make sure it will increase the number of the highest link on the armor so getting the 5 or 6 links would be reliable. Again, if necessary make a new orb that does that and costs 20 fusing.
Last but not least a way to get the right colour on the right socket. This one would be tricker as we are adding more variables but a simple way would be that the Chromatics could be traded in stacks for an orb that will add a specific colour to the socket. Since this won't say which socket is changed then the orb would create an exception which would say that the socket it changed in colour cannot be changed in colour again (this leads to a new rare orb being created that just erases the cannot re-colour but it's a rare orb, thus can't be bought, it has to drop). Buy having these specific coloured orbs costing 20 chromatics each you can get 120 and make sure that the armour will have the specific 6 coloured sockets that you want.
Now what is the down side of all of this? The market will take a hit in values of items since the socket market is extremely expensive, however it is something that has to be measured by GGG in the long term. What is preferable. That the market takes a hit in values and possibly (I doubt but I might as well add this)lose some old players who don't like seeying their stuff devalued in the market. Or do they prefer to make the game better for the new players and potentially get a larger player base.
As for me, I'm going to stop playing just as my friend did. While it is not as frustating for me as it was for my friend (I got really lucking with a 5 socket I found and managed to get the fusing with 30 orbs), it is still imensly frustating. Even the build that I had in mind for a mage with full block, spell block, evasion + dodge is down the drain. It is because not only it's way too hard to get a single armour with 5 or 6 links, let alone an evasion only armour with 6 links, 4 being blue and 2 being red... I'll leave it up to GGG to decide whether or not this much randomness helps the gameplay or hurts it.
Path of dying mostly because of Desync? Path of unproportionally high XP penalties especially in context with desync? Path of pervert multimaxiultralayered RNG on literally everyting? Path of crazy oneshot mechanics against yourself even as non-gass-canon? Path of Trade? Path of Nerfs? Path of cryptic skill and item descriptions? Path of RMT ?
To 6L Stuff IMHO the smallest problem in this regard, and my firends never left because of linking items, it was more because of the above mentioned stuff :)
This OP actually brings up a good piece of feedback, although not quite the one he/she was thinking of.
The link system and drop rate are fine, I believe the frustration lies both in the expectation of getting higher links than 4, as well as the expectation that your first builds will clear the game. I think that GGG could do a better job communicating to new and potential players that the game really is balanced to be quite difficult. You will likely have to re-roll to try new things or fix some mistakes that have added up over time to lead to a difficulty wall which you find impassable. More importantly, that this idea of re-rolling and trying new things is part of what makes it fun. There is more viable unique builds in this game than you will ever play through. You certainly are not punished for doing your own thing and/or avoiding looking up other peoples builds. But multiple iterations of a build may be necessary before you see it through to the end. This is especially true for new players who haven't quite mastered navigating the skill tree, or timing build changes.
The game certainly doesn't major balance changes in these areas, but both the developers and the community probably could do a much better job of setting the expectations of new and potential players as to just what they are getting into.
if u cant clear merciless with a 4L then ur bad at the game. mathil tornado shot clears 75 maps with a 4L.
No, it just means you don't want to do what others are doing. I completely see the OP's point and have discussed it with the devs on several occasions. 4L is indeed sufficient for those who are happy to use certain skills, but all that means is that 5-6L are considered a 'luxury' by those people and a 'necessity' by others who want to do things their own way -- which they should be able to, within reason, given it's supposed to be all about 'build diversity'.
The basic problem with the current system is it essentially MUST be tuned for min/maxers who can squeeze a lot of power out of 4L and turn into fucking faceroll gods with 5-6L. Meanwhile, those who would push the creative limits of the 5L-6L are stuck with 4L because the main means to acquire a 5-6L is to either create a boring farming build, trade aggressively or get very lucky.
This game is FULL of build diversity potential, but is for the most part unable to achieve that potential because it's not tuned for those who'd realise that diversity.
ARPGs typically have enough RNG from item-mod based rolls. Adding an extra layer that actually dictates which skills you can use and to what extent was a mistake on GGG's behalf, but it's a fundamental element to this game and you work around it...because, as ever, it's one of those things you put up with because the game itself is still better than its shortcomings.
Just to contextualise how stupid this system is, imagine reaching level 30 in Diablo 2 but being unable to use level 30 requirement skills. Now and then you get to roll a virtual dice to see if you can enable it or not (simulating RNG drops), and even if you do, you may have to take a hit in your stats (because in PoE sometimes you have to sacrifice good gear to get the sockets/links you need).
I'm sure it looked good on paper and it certainly seemed like a brilliant idea when I first encountered in during Closed Beta (mainly because D3 had dumped a similar, but far more streamlined, system), but before long the problematic nature of tying skill potential to gear made itself clear.
wonderfully said. +1 !
“Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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