risk/reward isn't coming. ever. [I give up]

"

Peterlerock wrote:

Get a 5L.
Get your resists capped.
Get a 300/500 DpS 1h/2h or equivalent casting stuff.
Get 4000+ life.
...Game is beaten.

And that stuff is so common and costs so little you can pay it with the stuff that lies upon the way, or even do it without any trade.

Even from a cookie-cutter perspective, that is a ludicrously oversimplified recipe for building a viable character. But I think we do agree that GGG makes it all too easy to trivialize the game. The difference is that that is your stated goal, whereas mine is to make it more challenging.

"

MasterAxe wrote:

Im not sure what your complaining about, Masters put a huge dent in trading, and making it so much easier for the non elite, its rather depressing just how easy they made it, LOL.

Indeed,

Even before masters I always played self found until about late merc to maps to save up for good shit. No reason to squander my early trade income on leveling shit. With master no reason to squander it until very late like 72 maps before I bought my first item this ladder. John maybe is just bad and talks when he should be listening and reading build guides, understanding itemization and survival techniques.

Then besides masters you have our power creep like those ridiculously cheap Heralds which trivializes content even more.

We need a self found ladder just to show how inept some ppl are and shut them up for good. I wouldnt do it, dont play enough...but many would be beating atziri after a month. Then QQers would shut up finally.

Yes it will be RNG somewhat that decides success - thats why games like these have TRADE. doh.

Trade corrects RNG. Use it or be frustrated.

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

SL4Y3R wrote:

Adios john. Best of luck wherever you go. Good news is though that Witcher 3 comes out in several months, and the devs have stated all DLC will be free.

Peace

I'm not leaving the game.

but I am stopping risk/reward posts.
no one from GGG seems to give a shit - because of the reasons in OP - and I'm just wasting my time and effort.

Just play in standard ... With current balance around trade there is no point in joining new leagues if you dont plan to flip like mad hamster...

"

johnKeys wrote:

edited OP to clarify, Moon.
I'm not quitting, but I am tired of getting ignored by GGG .

They are not ignoring you, they just don't agree with you like the majority of Path of exile players

@RagnarokChu,

1) and you are forgetting, top-tier uniques could drop anywhere their base level allowed in Open Beta. randomly. completely anti-risk/reward. and the Open Beta map system was a nightmare, so doing a step like limiting items to map level is risk/reward in general terms, but a fucking terrible idea when put into context of just how much trade those high maps required back then.
doing a half-assed job at something, tends to only make matters worse.

as for Uber Atziri, I am deliberately using her zone as an example.
she's locked behind so much randomness, Morbo is the only person I know who's insane enough to try get to Alluring Abyss solo. not self-found. let's see if he succeeds.
and for solo-self-found? well I dare say it's simply an impossible task, unless you literally can win a hundred lotteries in a row.

does that make any sense to you? an entire piece of content completely locked to the vast majority of players? let us try it, god dammit! get our asses kicked like real men!
hiding content - no matter how tough and how super-end-game - behind so much RNG it becomes mandatory high-end-trade, is ridiculous.

now just go ahead and apply this theory in a bit lesser terms, to anything from normal progression (without trade) to end-game maps. you'll see a pattern. one that screams "TRADE, OR GTFO!".
I have no problem with "TRADE!".
I sure as hell have a problem with "GTFO!".
I have no problem with the "rich" being "rich" and multi-mirrored.
I sure as hell have a problem with the non-trading never knowing what a Mirror is - no matter how incredibly good they are at the game - unless they are so damn lucky they can catch a Meteorite with their teeth. twice.

2) as long as Orbs are "money" first and foremost - I believe you understood my term: "economy currency".
you don't craft anything with masters: you pay them with dollars to get a deterministic result, just like you can pay other players for the same.
again, it would be Crafting if and only if orbs required were actually obtainable without trade.
simply put: if Elreon and Zana want Exalts, then give me a Vendor Recipe to turn my lesser orbs/stuff into Exalts. either that, or have Exalts drop when completing an extra-tough mission.
"Exalt" here as a collective name to all "economy-exclusive" types of orbs, which is almost half of them. same as "Mirror" in section (1).

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

inherently you are taking the best aspects of every single game that you like and want them all put together into a different game. Every good part of the game the design aspects make a negative, and PoE directly being influenced by D2 has the exact same weaknesses and problems within the gameplay itself.

that's kind of the whole point, isn't it?
a great game is a combination of great unique ideas, and implementing ideas inspired by great things in other games.
GGG are not stupid. at least some of them probably played all the games we discussed and more.
is it really too much to ask, for at least a subset of other games' good sides be somehow implemented in Path Of Exile, thereby making it a better ARPG?
apparently, it is.
even though if you zoom-in enough, you'll see D2 is by far not the only game that contributed to GGG's design and implementation.
they can do more, but they don't want to do more, and by that they are frustrating the fuck out of me.

so much so, I decided it's no longer worth mentioning because nothing will ever change.
all we are discussing here, is basically pointless Strings cluttering a Forum server's storage.
even if a GGG dev reads this - and I highly doubt that - nothing will ever change.
they wanted trade-centred? they got trade-centred.
they wanted one RNG to rule them all? got it.
and now that players are trading and exploiting on a massive scale, trying to pick all those damned random locks GGG put in place - it is too late.
they can't add risk/reward even if they wanted to. and they don't.

Isnt all of this just your opinion? Just your own taste? I like trading as it is, you cant have recipes for exalts or else it would mess up the economy, and is that so hard to get your chaos and trade them with someone to get exalts, would that ruin the self found experience? Everything you want would ruin the game for ppl that like trading, the only solution would be a special self found league. In my country we have a saying that goes like this: "You can not please Greeks and Trojans" :)

Trading is the least fun part of PoE for me personally or rather, there is no fun in it, at all. When you make a player cringe at the idea of needing an upgrade for his gear in a game based around farming better gear, you are failing as a developer imo.

PoE has a lot of min/max type players and yet still the trading system is basically the most inefficient trading model you can implement in a game short of not having one at all. The trading system as it stands now is built to waste your time looking for potential upgrades you might never end up trading for.

This isn't desync where there is a technical reason behind a system being bad. This is a plain and simple, bad development choice. The trading system adds nothing to PoE but a thorn in some players side and ignored by others as "working as intended".

As for risk vs reward, PoE is a very easy game. Most every death comes from a gear issue and you very rarely die to getting Vaal Smashed in the face. The only type of risk PoE appears to be able to achieve is forcing players to not be geared for the situation in front of them. This is done with things like resistance debuffs in Cruel and Merciless. The game doesn't become harder in Cruel or Merciless but simply they increase damage dealt while lowering your mitigation. The new Merviel is an example of a well designed monster. If half or even an eighth of the effect was put into reworking the current boring zerg of monsters PoE has to offer, the game would have a dramatic shift. I can't say if this shift would be good or bad as that would vary from player to player. Overall the game would become harder and GGG could make the harder parts of the game more rewarding.

"

RogueMage wrote:

"

Poutsos wrote:

1) There is ZERO skill based combat in the game. ZERO. The only "skill" people are talking about, is moving out of the way on telegraphed attacks. Sure this is is nice but it does not require SKILL. And desync, for some people eliminates the chance to even do that consistently. This is not Dark Souls. The fights, NOT ONLY IN POE, but ALL D2 style Dungeon Crawlers were gear checks, which brings us to:

2) When you have a certain level of gear, there is ZERO RISK involved. You can faceroll 99% of the content within minutes. My lv96 flicker striker, could solo everything with zero risk of dying, except some unfortunate situations with extreme desync happening. The only dangerous encounters, were 1) Aluuring Abyss and 2) 3-4 bosses with ridiculous mod combination.

In terms of cause and effect, I think you listed those two points in backward order. It is because you have acquired "a certain level of gear" (which trivializes all threats), that there is consequently zero skill left in the game. The fatal flaw is not that such gear exists, but that it is readily available for purchase. A truly hardcore game would require not only skill, but dedication to reach such heights, and would award its most coveted trophies only to those who have personally tread the path.

Many scenarios in PoE actually do demand skillful playing, but only when you face them outnumbered, and without using outlandish gear or over-leveled characters. What that requires are diversified builds that balance offense and defense with the ability to kite as well as handle both overwhelming hordes and overpowered bosses. But that runs against the grain of PoE's skill gem design, which offers multiplicative rewards to over-specialized builds that spam one or two maxed out mega-dps attacks. This leads directly to max clearspeed syndrome, which trivializes not only the content but the experience of actually playing the game as well.

Hmm, no, i cannot agree with you. It did take alot of dedication for me personally to get that level of gear, 'cause i strictly played solo/duo, and traded rarely. So for the longest periods i was outnumbered, and undergeared, but never felt that any real "skill" was required. I was slower, and very cautious, and had become damn fast at hitting alt+F4, but nothing too much. I beleive that PoE (used to) require skill, in it's RPG aspects, as in designing a decent build, and adjusting to every map/boss(before you entered). Also i guess it does require skill to trade/flip sucessfully, which is something i nevered bother to do, that's why it took me so long to gear up. But in the actual "Action" part of ARPG, no, it requires very little skill. On the other hand, an ARPG like Dark Souls, requires far more skill in the action part, than the RPG part(even though it is important as well). Getting out of the way on a telegraphed attack cannot be compared to beating The Operator in The Witcher 2 on Dark Mod, or beating the Fume Knight on NG+10 on Dark SOuls in terms of skill. That's just how it is, and it is not a bad thing. Different design, different goals, different gameplay.

"

johnKeys wrote:

2) as long as Orbs are "money" first and foremost - I believe you understood my term: "economy currency".
you don't craft anything with masters: you pay them with dollars to get a deterministic result, just like you can pay other players for the same.
again, it would be Crafting if and only if orbs required were actually obtainable without trade.
simply put: if Elreon and Zana want Exalts, then give me a Vendor Recipe to turn my lesser orbs/stuff into Exalts. either that, or have Exalts drop when completing an extra-tough mission.
"Exalt" here as a collective name to all "economy-exclusive" types of orbs, which is almost half of them. same as "Mirror" in section (1).

Well, your definition of crafting is surely weird and nitpicky. Wonder you are dissatisfied.

Have you ever thought that the fact that exalt is the "golden standard" of PoE is consequence of players actions and not by design? An exalted orb is a glorified augmentation orb. They have little intrinsic value themselves.

"

NeroNoah wrote:

Have you ever thought that the fact that exalt is the "golden standard" of PoE is consequence of players actions and not by design? An exalted orb is a glorified augmentation orb. They have little intrinsic value themselves.

No, it's because they are called fucking currency items and their use as a crafting orb, to most, is non existent.

It's about as 'by design' as it gets.