risk/reward isn't coming. ever. [I give up]

"

TheAnuhart wrote:

"

NeroNoah wrote:

Have you ever thought that the fact that exalt is the "golden standard" of PoE is consequence of players actions and not by design? An exalted orb is a glorified augmentation orb. They have little intrinsic value themselves.

No, it's because they are called fucking currency items and their use as a crafting orb, to most, is non existent.

It's about as 'by design' as it gets.

I didn't deny the orbs where designed to be used as currency, but if you search the article "Rethinking currency" you'll see that they tried (and had mixed results) to make it consumable and useful.

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/55102

Which orbs are more valuable is something that depends on the players. The chaos used to be more valuable for trading, the gcp used to be the main currency before chaos, etc.

This is a false dichotomy. Currency and crafting material don't have to be opposite things (D2 runes!). Blame the design, not the "economuh". You'll be wiser that way.

"

johnKeys wrote:

1) and you are forgetting, top-tier uniques could drop anywhere their base level allowed in Open Beta. randomly. completely anti-risk/reward.

So you're ignoring all the stuff that only drops in high level zones (and that is risk/reward) just because of the incredibly low chance of getting a top unique from a barrel in Docks?

"

as for Uber Atziri, I am deliberately using her zone as an example.
she's locked behind so much randomness, Morbo is the only person I know who's insane enough to try get to Alluring Abyss solo. not self-found. let's see if he succeeds.
and for solo-self-found? well I dare say it's simply an impossible task, unless you literally can win a hundred lotteries in a row.

All you have to do is collect Fragments.
That's nothing but a time investment. People buy Fragments because they want to save time, not because it's an "impossible task".

Then you need a build that can "kill Atziri on a budget". Such builds exist.
Then you farm the next tier of Fragments.
Then you have access to Uber Atziri.

On a long enough time frame and with enough dedication, you have access to Uber. Solo Selffound.

It's a super stupid time investment, but it's definetly not "impossible".
I would never ever do this, and I also think it's a stupid design decision to gate access to content like this, but a) this content is not mandatory (I've never seen it and don't care), and b) if you want it, you can get there.

"

you don't craft anything with masters: you pay them with dollars to get a deterministic result, just like you can pay other players for the same.

For me, that's 100% "crafting".

In any other game involving "Crafting", it's the same.
You want ice damage on your weapon? Collect 100 blue flowers, cook them into powder, then collect 5 crystals, put all that stuff on a working bench, and get your "sword of ice +10".

You need ingredients, and the fact that you can trade those ingredients doesn't make them "currency only".

I have so far used every orb that drops in this game (apart from mirror and eternal).
And I will use them all again, and again, and again.
For "crafting", either by doing it myself or paying for the craft on master benches.

For me, those orbs are crafting materials first, currency second.

"

RagnarokChu wrote:

"

Treffnix wrote:

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

I dont think you have a choice between "around trade" or just "sometimes trade". It's either a trade game or BoA game. Because when trade is allowed it's automatically superior....

Yes. Maybe allow 10 trades per day. Or make items which you got via trade BOA.
That would allow people to trade for missing items to play with, but not become insanely rich off it.

Why would people trading and becoming insanely rich off of it have anything to do with the base game itself?
If I suddenly removing trading it doesn't fix the problems with the game.

Well, drop rates are tuned according to trade. Meaning a self-found player very very seldomly finds something really good. Traders, no matter how few monsters they actually kill will always have better items. I think that is a lousy risk vs reward ratio.
And I didn't suggest removing trade. I'd hate to find a godly items which doesn't fit any char I play or want to play if I couldn't trade it to someone who does like it. My suggestion was to allow trading for stuff you need but preventing people from ruining prices (and ultimately drop rates) by flipping items.

I think ggg did give a shit. Master Crafting did help a bit. For normal person, it takes quite some time to reach lv8 tho...

Some content are supposed to be rare. For content like normal Atziri fight. I'm not sure if RNG is the best way.

There was a point from JohnKeys about curency and higher level orbs not being obtainable through recipes.

Question to the ether - what if PoE (much as third party sites do) tracked current trades and allowed *all* orbs to be made, through a recipe, for 1/4 extra cost? I.e. mirrors cost 200 ex? you can make one for 250.

(sure, people would inevitably try to use new leagues to scam this...)

"

davidnn5 wrote:

Question to the ether - what if PoE (much as third party sites do) tracked current trades and allowed *all* orbs to be made, through a recipe, for 1/4 extra cost? I.e. mirrors cost 200 ex? you can make one for 250.

I think Mirrors can be left without a recipe. they aren't required for anything but mirroring - which is pure economy since self-found are unlikely to mirror anything they already own.

but I do want all orbs to have recipes, otherwise Master Crafting still isn't really crafting.
and the reason it's not crafting is it still forces you to trade: e.g Elreon wants 1 Exalted Orb for his sweet Meta Mod, and you have a couple stacks of Chaos Orbs from Chaos Recipe and drops - so you still need to find another player to convert those Chaos into the desired Exalt.
or you can randomly drop an Exalt ... which probably will happen somewhere in the next 2 years, or the next 5 minutes, depending on RNG.

as for tracking trades and "scamming this" in new leagues, I didn't understand what you mean, and I'm sure GGG cannot possibly track every single trade transaction even if they wanted to.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Peterlerock,

1) even if it's not true, I can say from almost two years of experience that from a player's point of view, it seems like your odds of dropping that Kaom's Heart from killing Turbo Palace Dominus, equal your odds of dropping it from a random Docks barrel.
and that just isn't right.
you - as a designer - need to let your players know, their effort/skill/risk-taking is actually worth something.

2) "All you have to do is collect Fragments". man I am sorry but what a stupid statement.
yes, you "collect fragments". then you "collect more fragments" by defeating Atziri, and then you just run Uber Atziri. simple right? in theory that is.
in practice, you are very likely to lose your damned mind, while your kids grow up and have your grandkids - before any of that happens.

"kill Atziri on a budget"? Self-Found have no "budget"...
just wake up and smell the roses, for fuck's sake.
you are so used to trade, you don't even understand "not trading", and yet that doesn't stop you from writing statements that are just insulting.

3) are you really so unable to grasp the difference between "collect 100 flowers and 5 crystals, then cook on the working bench using an Enchanted Pot", and "that'll be 1 Exalt. pure"?
but again, "1 Ex. pure" can be a form of crafting too, but only if you have a way to convert your collected flowers and crystals into 1 Ex, without opening trade chat and going "WTB Exalt for flowers. 1:100".

You probably won't adress this, but I had to say something about this:

"

johnKeys wrote:

@Peterlerock,

1) even if it's not true, I can say from almost two years of experience that from a player's point of view, it seems like your odds of dropping that Kaom's Heart from killing Turbo Palace Dominus, equal your odds of dropping it from a random Docks barrel.
and that just isn't right.
you - as a designer - need to let your players know, their effort/skill/risk-taking is actually worth something.

2) "All you have to do is collect Fragments". man I am sorry but what a stupid statement.
yes, you "collect fragments". then you "collect more fragments" by defeating Atziri, and then you just run Uber Atziri. simple right? in theory that is.
in practice, you are very likely to lose your damned mind, while your kids grow up and have your grandkids - before any of that happens.

"kill Atziri on a budget"? Self-Found have no "budget"...
just wake up and smell the roses, for fuck's sake.
you are so used to trade, you don't even understand "not trading", and yet that doesn't stop you from writing statements that are just insulting.

3) are you really so unable to grasp the difference between "collect 100 flowers and 5 crystals, then cook on the working bench using an Enchanted Pot", and "that'll be 1 Exalt. pure"?
but again, "1 Ex. pure" can be a form of crafting too, but only if you have a way to convert your collected flowers and crystals into 1 Ex, without opening trade chat and going "WTB Exalt for flowers. 1:100".

1)It doesn't feel different, but definitively is not equal. Maths.

2)Read the anouncement about the new patch; it brings interesting news, although ones that require to use the brain to be useful.
About the budget build part; someone defeated Atziri combining CI+EB (look my post in General Discussion for proof). It's an skill check.

3)Your complain about the materials is just unfounded. Too nitpicky for my tastes. Currency, crafting materials, it's a semantic's question. The dictionary says that you craft if you create something manually. The specifics are not that relevant.
There are options that require rare orbs, but they are not really needed until the endgame. For example, the multiple mod option allows to create weapons that can kill Uber Atziri. Having to find two exalts seems fair.

@NeroNoah,

read the announcement just now.
I like it. encouraging players to run crazier maps is risk/reward.
now if only the Vaal Orbs required to corrupt maps, weren't tied up to Vaal Skill Gems and Fragments in a circular dependency.
meaning at least one more VO recipe, that doesn't require you to spend your hard-earned fragments.


as for (1): it isn't mathematically equal, but I was talking about the feeling players get.

look, if this game had gold instead of orbs, I'm sure we'd be guaranteed to get more of it from killing Merciless Fidelitas, compared to just flipping over a random rock in Normal Ledge.
because that's a natural part of progression through content: you are getting more gold from tougher/higher-level content, and you are spending more gold as you reach higher gear/crafting tiers.

well since this game has an innovative system of orbs instead of gold, why not do the same?
I mean, they already are divided into tiers, and now we have Masters that you level to 5-6 so they can say "give me a Divine and I'll give you +5% chance to freeze" - so why not have a noticeably higher chance to get that Divine from Merc Fidelitas compared to Ledge white skelly?
why not have a recipe for the Divine, that doesn't require you to vendor a fucking 6-link?

it's normal progression, that should be an absolutely trivial concept if you played at least one more ARPG besides Path Of Exile.
one that while still not better than "24/7 trade", actually does encourage you to get out there and kill things that pose a threat - rather than sit in town/Hideout flipping all day, or bot-farm areas half your level.


and crafting isn't "semantics" nor is it "nitpicking".
"give me an Exalt" when the only two ways of getting it are "economy" and RNG - is not crafting.
can you really not see that?

Play harder maps = noticeably higher drops.

"

SL4Y3R wrote:

Play harder maps = noticeably higher drops.

now that's just a filthy, disgusting lie.

I can show you all the gear I ever dropped in almost two years of Path Of Exile - that I bothered keeping and using - and I assure you most of it came from anything but "harder maps".
probably vast majority.

the recent ones - 2 six-links and 1 Tabula Rasa - were Blue Shore, Inner Treasure from a blue Strongbox in a White Bog, and some map that was actually yellow, but was also below level 70 and didn't have any of the crazy-tier mods like half/no-regen or extra boss/mob damage or reflect.
or was it just a "items are fully linked" box in a white Dried Lake? not sure.

even the old "exalts from Ledge barrels" "joke", is a proven reality for me.
.....

and even if we assumed what you said was true, how about the content before maps? can you progress through that solo self-found, and get your fair chances at steady upgrades through beating increasingly tougher content? or do you simply consider anything before "end-game" as not being part of the game? 9 acts of content, across 3 difficulties?

PoE has none of that.
don't bullshit me, Slayer.
I've been here long enough.

and I'm not saying there should be zero chance to drop Exalts from barrels or a good item from a white skelly in a white 66 map or Normal Ledge.
I am saying the chance to do so from a crazy fucking double boss with -max resistances and "players take +9001% damage as all elements combined" in a level 9001 Vaal Temple, should be a heck of a lot higher. so high, you'd actually consider doing that insane crazy map, rather than fucking brainlessly farm Docks, Fellshrine, Sceptre or Lunaris with your level 90 char, because RNG screwed you out of maps again.

oh, and you actually got to have a level 90 char because you traded.
otherwise, you were putting the same insane amounts of half a dozen thousand hours of your life into Path Of Exile, beating gear-check after gear-check with dumb brute-forcing of RNG, like Anuhart is doing and Morbo was doing until he got fed up and started trading.
that's +1 more, to GGG's "trade or get the fuck out" design.
cheers, Mr. Wilson.