Legal Vs. Ethical in HC

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nynyny wrote:

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No matter how many guys they scam, they will scam some more

Scaming isnt cheating. If youre not capable of checking how much an item is worth then you deserve to be punished for it. If anything its exploiting peoples stupidity but sure as hell not cheating.

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Which is a silly copout. If logout and oos macros are such a necessary component of the game they shouldn't require a third party software.

Oos should just be bound to F1 by default. It's a simple solution. Everything else is a copout.

There need not be a third party program involved at all.

Once that is the case you can actually talk about coherent rules in regards to third party programs, but as it stands right now there will always be gray areas.

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And new people too, who haven't learned every corner of the economy yet.

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The OP mentions the word "ethics" too, Mr Brainiac.

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nynyny wrote:

Ethics are completely subjective. The game basically supports a "free market".

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nynyny wrote:

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Which is a silly copout. If logout and oos macros are such a necessary component of the game they shouldn't require a third party software.

Oos should just be bound to F1 by default. It's a simple solution. Everything else is a copout.

There need not be a third party program involved at all.

Once that is the case you can actually talk about coherent rules in regards to third party programs, but as it stands right now there will always be gray areas.

Its not. If the game has obvious flaws that are even acknowledge by the developers then its just reasonable to use a third party program to get rid of the problems at hand. If the game had an alternative (being able to bind /oos in game) then you would have a point. As it stands right now you dont.

If you ever had stepped into a +damage Palace with a fast attacking build you would know why both features are necessary for an enjoyable gameplay experience. Without /oos existing a lot of builds that involve skills such as Barrage and Cyclone honestly wouldnt even be possible.

Youre either incredibly inexperienced (heavily implied by your low level characters and the highest one being on standard) or just plain delusional.

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And new people too, who haven't learned every corner of the economy yet.

Being new doesnt justify being uninformed. If you find an item you have a shit ton of ways to figure out its value. Even if its just by asking the global chat for a PC. If you cant even do that, then you have no right to complain because you sell something without even trying to figure out what its worth in hope that people will be honest with you. Which is incredibly naive.

Path of Exile isnt rocket science, especially not its economy.

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The OP mentions the word "ethics" too, Mr Brainiac.

Ethics are completely subjective. The game basically supports a "free market". If I am buying an item for less than its worth on poe.xyz then I am not necessarily scamming you. Maybe I just think that item X is worth that much, no matter what the market says?

Proper ethics are impossible to define in this game. After all I could argue that you behave unethical because you play for more hours per week than some other guy, gaining a severe advantage due to being NEET. The goal is to make profit. Having that goal is anything but unethical especially when everyone has access to the same information. Let alone that you need to differ here. If you ask me how much something is worth and I lie to, thats unethical. If I offer you an amount of currency and you accept it, its not. But as I explained above even lying isn't always lying.

I have a Beyond Shavronnes and paid full market price for it but sure as hell dont value the thing that much. There are no predefined values which makes this whole argument incredibly fishy because it all comes down to personal judgement. In my book an Exalt isnt worth 50 fucking Chaos either. Doesnt change the fact that most people want that much for one by now. If I buy one for less I pay an amount that is closer to the value that I THINK it is worth.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

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jdilly23 wrote:

The "it doesnt effect me so I dont care" mentality is overwhelming here.

Some players find it fun to casually stumble along and go at their own pace, that doesnt mean players that want to be the best are invalid. And we shouldnt have to resort to all the bullshit currently being resorted to if we want to compete.

I also imagine the actually ToU looks more like "Hey guys, could you like, maybe stop that?"

You started in one place but ended up in another, and the progression you've described (blithe apathy to despondent helplessness) is actually the reverse of what's happened to most of us.

'It doesn't affect me so I don't care' (apathy) is typically a result of 'I can't do anything about it.' (helplessness).


edit: so many typos. Whit as wrung with mo?

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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nynyny wrote:

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Which is a silly copout. If logout and oos macros are such a necessary component of the game they shouldn't require a third party software.

Oos should just be bound to F1 by default. It's a simple solution. Everything else is a copout.

There need not be a third party program involved at all.

Once that is the case you can actually talk about coherent rules in regards to third party programs, but as it stands right now there will always be gray areas.

Its not. If the game has obvious flaws that are even acknowledge by the developers then its just reasonable to use a third party program to get rid of the problems at hand. If the game had an alternative (being able to bind /oos in game) then you would have a point. As it stands right now you dont.

If you ever had stepped into a +damage Palace with a fast attacking build you would know why both features are necessary for an enjoyable gameplay experience. Without /oos existing a lot of builds that involve skills such as Barrage and Cyclone honestly wouldnt even be possible.

Youre either incredibly inexperienced (heavily implied by your low level characters and the highest one being on standard) or just plain delusional.

"

And new people too, who haven't learned every corner of the economy yet.

Being new doesnt justify being uninformed. If you find an item you have a shit ton of ways to figure out its value. Even if its just by asking the global chat for a PC. If you cant even do that, then you have no right to complain because you sell something without even trying to figure out what its worth in hope that people will be honest with you. Which is incredibly naive.

Path of Exile isnt rocket science, especially not its economy.

"

The OP mentions the word "ethics" too, Mr Brainiac.

Ethics are completely subjective. The game basically supports a "free market". If I am buying an item for less than its worth on poe.xyz then I am not necessarily scamming you. Maybe I just think that item X is worth that much, no matter what the market says?

Proper ethics are impossible to define in this game. After all I could argue that you behave unethical because you play for more hours per week than some other guy, gaining a severe advantage due to being NEET. The goal is to make profit. Having that goal is anything but unethical especially when everyone has access to the same information. Let alone that you need to differ here. If you ask me how much something is worth and I lie to, thats unethical. If I offer you an amount of currency and you accept it, its not. But as I explained above even lying isn't always lying.

I have a Beyond Shavronnes and paid full market price for it but sure as hell dont value the thing that much. There are no predefined values which makes this whole argument incredibly fishy because it all comes down to personal judgement. In my book an Exalt isnt worth 50 fucking Chaos either. Doesnt change the fact that most people want that much for one by now. If I buy one for less I pay an amount that is closer to the value that I THINK it is worth.

Game flaws shouldnt be fixed with instant logout. GGG could reduce clutter on the ground, make overall game speed lower, rebalance or even remove some most-desyncing skills, decrease moster damage and increase their life, etc. Even if they can do nothing with netcode, they could improve gameplay experience by far above it is. But GGG acts as if desync NEVER was there.
Allowing "cheats" to cover game flaws is a dead end.

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Youre either incredibly inexperienced (heavily implied by your low level characters and the highest one being on standard) or just plain delusional.

"

Game flaws shouldnt be fixed with instant logout. GGG could reduce clutter on the ground, make overall game speed lower, rebalance or even remove some most-desyncing skills, decrease moster damage and increase their life, etc. Even if they can do nothing with netcode, they could improve gameplay experience by far above it is. But GGG acts as if desync NEVER was there.
Allowing "cheats" to cover game flaws is a dead end.

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Exactly my point. Balancing the game around the use of mechanics that are external to the game is not only silly but almost bizarre.

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All my high level characters are on my alts. I have several characters at lvl 85+ and even 90. Not that this has anything to do with the validity of the argument anyway.

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nynyny wrote:

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Game flaws shouldnt be fixed with instant logout. GGG could reduce clutter on the ground, make overall game speed lower, rebalance or even remove some most-desyncing skills, decrease moster damage and increase their life, etc. Even if they can do nothing with netcode, they could improve gameplay experience by far above it is. But GGG acts as if desync NEVER was there.
Allowing "cheats" to cover game flaws is a dead end.

People already found a way to deal with the problems that exist. Why would I, as a small game developer, invest time, money and resourced into a problem that my community already solved? The profits I will make off of that are minimal.

If a person really likes PoE he wont quit because of desync. He'll quit because of all the other shit their incompetent balance department has been pulling over the last 12 months.

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Exactly my point. Balancing the game around the use of mechanics that are external to the game is not only silly but almost bizarre.

Youre basically saying that they should rather overhaul the entire game than ask people to simply run a logout macro to deal with problems. This is still a rather small company. As of right now the community found a way to deal with the existing problem. So what would be my incentive to fix these problems over other ones?

All you do is repeat the same bullshit about how something shouldnt be the case which is completely irrelevant to the topic. My original post was targeted as the OP claiming that using logout macros is cheating and ethically wrong. Which simply is wrong since a million feature heavily imply that the game is designed with these things in mind.

The damage is scaled that way, the desync and /oos works accordingly to it, the ability to instantly logout exists. A lot of GGGs decisions hint at the fact that youre somewhat supposed to use macros. Whether that makes sense or not is irrelevant. We arent living in a rainbow world where mentioning a problem magically makes it disappear. And I am sure that if the problems would be easy to solve they would have done something about it by now.

And why would I as a developer waste my time (and therefore money) with implementing a properly designed ingame macro system when people already found a way to deal with the problems at hand?

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All my high level characters are on my alts. I have several characters at lvl 85+ and even 90. Not that this has anything to do with the validity of the argument anyway.

It has everything to do with it. If you had ever played a level 90+ character in a hardcore environment running Shrines or Palaces with difficult map mods you would know that especially close cornered maps are you fucking you over constantly.

You cant serious think that instant logout function are a necessity when the game randomly teleports you into room you never set foot into.

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nynyny wrote:

And I asked you what my incentive as a developer is to fix these problems if my community already found a way to deal with them. Implementing these things costs resources that I could invest otherwise.